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Forum Index : Solar : Solar Farm Practicallity
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raymond thomson Newbie  Joined: 19/09/2013 Location: AustraliaPosts: 36 |
I tried searching for this with no luck. Can you provide a link? Thanks Raymond. |
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| Jarbar Senior Member  Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 224 |
You may already have accessed these sites which are both solar orientated. PV Output allows those with solar to compare outputs for a geographically similar area. pvoutput.org/ You can see our output at CoolPV Solar Citizens are a lobby group for furthering the progression of solar in Australia. www.solarcitizens.org.au Annthony "Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father "Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather. |
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norcold Guru  Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Household PV Raymond, Download- Consumer Guide ........, pdf file from the above page. Also check out Jarbar`s site, plenty of good info there. But like all info be wary eg. the Govt info is outdated, if I could find a way I`d outdate all govts, suspect so would a lot of us.  . You can also check out BOM and NASA, but have fun there navigating, hope you haven`t a slow Sat Internet as I have.We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All The savings as a return compared to bank interest is a factor that varies with every PV home installation and even in the worst cases is many times bank interest and as costs go up as the surely will in time the return at a personal basis is enormous. A solar farm is a different kettle of fish and unless you have a half a million laying around doing nothing, the numbers must be crunched to see the margin between borrowed funds and percentage return on the investment. In my experience the minimum sustainable return is 12% after all costs, maintenance and management expenses, a firm contract to supply a entity or a group of users must be in place and reflect this as a minimum return. Any other so called benefits that the government may give just reflect a bonus that is here today and gone tomorrow like most government promises. If these incentives are included in the so called profit from the farm it will give a distortion of bottom line earnings and do not forget that once it is a commercial success ATO tax and levies not yet in place rear their ugly heads. The next thing is technology advancement, with the smart cookies increasing the efficiency of solar cells the life span of your guaranteed for 25 year panels {if you can still find the supplier} is no more than the 10 years, tech creep to be factored in, OK it might be 12 years but it could be 5 years, we have no crystal ball for that, or the whole financial system could have a meltdown and you have a big bill to pay and no one to sell to. Such is the case of long term investment. Dealing with government and commercial interests is another quicksand as they can swallow you up in the flash of a pen and with all their might make it retrospective as they did in the forestry industry. One minute we had a good business and next minute we owed the tax man thousands of dollars. Do not get me wrong I think a solar farm is a great idea in itself if you can use the power yourself, but from a commercial standpoint it is like swimming in a hungry shark pond, if the government and commercial interests had any scruples or morality it may be different but as it is, they will eat the sardines as quick as look at you. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
i hate to break it to you, my commonwealth cousins. but Australia appears to be a rather sunny land . 
shouldn't you be the number one solar producer in the world ? |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Electrondaddy1 You would think so but unfortunately our powers put the money on wind. They come on with strong and experienced lobbying, and like a bunch of sheep our politicians took the bait. What I really fear is that the after affects of wind will put a bad taste in the mouth of the voter and thus set us back in developing RE in this country. Our IWT`s placement seem to be made close to the power consumer rather then where the wind blows best. (Taken from available data) Which I assume saves us building HV power lines to less populous places. I wonder just how deliberate this is. It is a bloody national shame that solar was and is only given lip service from my viewpoint. Everytime I see a Slip, Slop, Slash Ad on TV my blood boils. We`ll become the laughing stock of the world, seeming to be leaders but time showing to be fools. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
Why did wind become the prime supplier of renewable electric energy? Why were all the other forms such as solar (PV and Thermal),geo thermal etc. almost totally overlooked? I think we, as a race have been conned. For example, GE (electrical generation manufacturer) owns large USA media operations and so controls the wind industry spin. Here in OZ, what used to be the Wind Energy Alliance changed Its name to Clean Energy Council to fool the masses into thinking it was a government instrument and so its spin was given credibility. Also in OZ, we find that Vestas (big wind turbine manufacturer) has paid huge amounts of money to minor and major political parties to support wind. The same company has paid millions of dollars to launch a programme called Act On Facts in an attempt to brainwash the general public (who don't live anywhere near wind turbines). The so called Facts have been shown to be lies or at best, a misrepresentation of the real facts. When will people wake up that wind, because of its intermittency and wild swings in output will never work. How many members of TBS have driven multi megawatt power generation plants or multi storey industrial boiler (paper mill) systems? I put my hand up. It is hard enough trying to maintain a stable supply when the load is fluctuating but when you have little or no control of the input (read wind), the job becomes extremely difficult. At least with solar, even though it too suffers from a degree of intermittency, its availability is relatively predictable and doesn't switch off in the middle of the day because the sun has stopped shining. Why don't we have more solar power? Its footprint compared to wind is huge and as a result (aside from roof top) it needs to be placed where space and sunshine are in abundance - a long way from consumption centres, hence big power lines and long distances. I used to be an Industrial Wind Turbine Tragic but from personal experience and a lot of reading, my views have changed somewhat. I think it is about time to cut our losses, scrap wind and look more closely at combined solar, gas, hot rocks and even tidal. Obscene amounts of taxpayers' are being thrown at wind because of vested interests only. OZ trade unions have millions of $$$ of superannuation money tied up in wind farms because the tax payer is paying for it. They are going to fight to keep the lucre flowing. Wake up. Wind is not clean and green - it will never replace base load power. There are far better ways to replace the likes of coal. David M. |
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Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Our problem is that politicians here in Australia are addicted to the revenue from digging up coal and extracting gas. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Yes Madness, coal is still king. Saw a figure once that if coal costs 2c/kWh, wind is about three times dearer, solar PV five times and solar thermal ten times dearer. You will still have coal fired power stations for the base load, so you have to have two systems as the others are intermittent. Gough Whitlam correctly estimated that if we start here with nuclear, we will start a South East Asian nuclear arms race and this is why Labor is much more strongly opposed to nuclear compared to the Libs. Indonesia in the meantime is building a reactor and the Greens claim it is located on a fault line! Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Solar footprint and HV accessibility are not a problem on my land, problem is my lobbying is amateurish rather than polished with experience, but mainly I don`t have that brown paper bag. Even for a bit thought I had one local councillor for solar, but fear he`s gone over to the wind con. Re. Clean Energy Council(CEC), note the biggest supplier of RE power in NQ is biogas from our sugar mills, but are they a member of the CEC? We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
norcold, Now that you have given us a figure of 8,000 kWhs/year I can work with something. If I use the retail price in Perth I come to about 8,000 x 22c/kWh or about $1,800/year. Question: How much did your system(s) cost net so I can work out a payback period? I should go back a page to look at how many kW your system is and then estimate a figure but if I do I probably lose this page. Anyway, an answer would be appreciated. The same mail to you went missing before so I am sending it again. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
norcold, Looking at your figures again of 11 x 240W panels it looks like a 3kW system. Assuming it costs $4,000 and you get $1,800 worth of retail priced electricity, then you are laughing and the payback time is a bit more than two years. Am I right or are you wrong? Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Raymond, Please put all your maths down including the multiple for your area from page 4 of that pdf file. If you can get 22c/Kwhr go for it. Like I said before those who got in early at 44cents/Kwhr in QLD above their usage (locked in til 2024 apparently)are laughing. My actual system is a off-grid system, thus it doesn`t feature in this. My panels are off once the batteries are charged, usually 11 or 12 AM. Unfortunately the only power line I have "access" to is a HV line. If you read back on this thread you`ll see I`d love to put in place a large system to access that, you`ll also note all the hurdles to such. Thus your question about cost of my existing system is not relevant to this thread, but it is no secret my system cost $52,000 back in 06, subsidised by the then govt by 50%. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
First; I tried to get you all understand with "interest" calculations(in my writing to this section earlier in page 14.) how my hybrid system with wind- and solar power works for me. But, easier to understand that my system pays for itself, even in these latitudes very, very north 
They ALREADY have paid all the costs in 5-6 year period and now I get free energy. NOW  ;
Energy prices are rising here all the time and taxes to them etc ! Power cuts are increasing all the time and storms ! Power lines are in the air here in Finland and in the forest, SO Best and most valuable thing for me, as we live in the countryside, in the middle of nowhere  !
Most of my energy, takes Freezers. WE pick, fish and grow our own PURE food ! Nothing will compensate this, if there is power cut and they will spoil. I have my own power plant with no pollution PURE energy, wind and solar, from my own yard.. !! as is our food and our way of life, with pure food ! Also reserve power and a lot ! To Norcold; Your batteries full and no use to extra power in the afternoon ?? I use this relay to "dump" power from my inverters to any AC unit. It can take about 4kw load with Ac 220-230V. DC load only 200-300W, so you need inverter(s) to use this, it will monitor your battery DC voltage and use this relay to connect AC voltage from inverter(s) to any "normal" household AC unit etc It is very easy to use, set all the points with screwdriver ! Price is very reasonable. EV cars are coming VERY soon and then there is no concern, where to put your "extra" energy. Your car will also be your energy storage, sooner than you think.. 
Relay for battery monitoring(12-24 systems) DC and connecting AC loads 4Kw, here; http://www.takowa.fi/fi/kauppa/1-vaihe-ac-dc/hrn-64 You can use to cool your house or warm and pump the water, with any "normal" unit that you have in the household etc etc You can find my writing about this, also in the story here, in the second page; http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5333&PN =1 This is the easiest way to use PV panels to warm water.. (BIG family and teenagers in the shower all the time etc, or you need hot water..) Also to use solar power directly to water pumping etc http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6020&PN =2 Your own imagination is the only barrier, to use power from solar and wind, to use in your own house ! Solar panel prices are VERY cheap nowadays and wind generators, that REALLY do power and serve you good ! Antero Ps Very strong winds here now and energy is coming IN !! |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Antero, I have followed your writings with keen interest and I do the same here, except I live in a totally different environment. I do not need to cool my shouse to any great extent in summer. A couple of ceiling fans is all that is required. Our winters are beautiful clear blue skies, with a temperature range from 10C to 30C, thus no need for heating in winter. I know from your writings I am very fortunate to live in this part of the world, with bush fires being my greatest threat, followed by lightening strikes then a little wind off tropical cyclones. Being inland cyclones are not a great concern. Being very dry for 9 months of the year, water is my most precious commodity. I have a underground bore, and two dams I am developing to transform my land into a oasis and wildlife haven. My power needs are met by 2500 watts of solar completely, although I have 3 small wind turbines total 1200 watts. But my area is not a wind site, the wind turbines are only toys. I just run standard 240v AC appliances with fluoros for lighting nothing special. On the matter of poor wind sites, there is a proposed large wind farm to be built 30-40ks East from me, they either know something I don`t or it is a con. It is at a higher elevation and on the east side of the Great Divide whereas I`m on the West side, so perhaps they know better. Time will tell. 
As promised back awhile. Above is a photo of mushroom feed collected yesterday, unfortunately we are having a very poor wet and the large ones are, as yet, not coming up. However these small ones though slow to pick are the best in flavour. The fruit of the OZ bush it doesn`t get any better. Antero, Also like you I live in the middle of nowhere. We have a saying in OZ, "just back of the black stump" We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
THANK you Norcold ! This my best catch, last autumn; 
Boletus Edulis the best and most delicios mushroom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boletus_edulis Once in my lifetime I want to taste your Barramundi as I also see in Master Chef Australia, which is VERY good program and my wife and I, watch that every night!! You are very lucky ones there, with a lot of sunshine and warm ! We have not seen sun here, since November. Lot of storms and foggy days, darkness. BUT this our home and I enjoy this all with my systems to survive here. SOME challenges, but it will only make things better.. To live with the scarce sources here. BUT wind power that we have and in the summertime here, sun shines longest in the world, in these latitudes. MIDNIGHT SUN nights, without the sunsets, that is the opposite to Polar Nights, that we have here. Some extreme conditions we have and our nature have adapted to that, as well we "forest "gump" dwellers" 
Antero |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
I thought you had forgotten about our barra, so above is a 76cm and 92cm "fruit of our Sea". Barra are very good eating, not the best. They have small heads, thus plenty of beautiful white flesh fillets. To catch them, pound to pound they are not the best fighter but they jump clear of the water and try to dislodge the hook by thrashing their head about whilst out of the water(often succeeding). Spectacular fighter is what they are. Yes we are extremely fortunate in OZ. I apologise to Bob for hijacking this thread a little, but you know us fishermen we are bloody braggarts. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Gizmo, As Antero and I are wandering off from the thread, in fairness I ask you if possible to move our last couple of posts to a new thread say Alternative Living, Nature Living or simply Living Today, some such broad topic thread. Whatever just to ensure we are not hijacking threads. I realise we are moving away from the original concept of TBS, but it is all in line with RE and obvious to Antero and myself interesting to read how we live so much the same yet in such contrasting environments. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Thank you Norcold. If I won in lottery, I will move to Australia the NEXT day !! Sounds like fisher mans paradice and I have seen a lot of documents about Australian nature. THE best place in THE world !! Pure food(without GMO etc) and PURE groundwater(without water fraction and chemicals etc..), they will very soon be THE most valuable treasures in this world. Keep your waters clean and forests ! Money is just paper that USA and many others print as much as they want.. ETC, but PURE things ?
SO much to think and solve ? SO litle time.. Antero |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
I agree with Norcold. But several times here and in other forums it has gone "off topic" and something good has happened. Some personal things come up and that will give a new fresh drive to the writings and spirit, in the forum and in the the question at hand. Get people thinking and participate. Antero PS Waiting for lottery win and moving to Australia.. |
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