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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Battery Rescue?
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| Tassie Mike Newbie  Joined: 29/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 13 |
Gidday , I only just saw this forum, I tried Energy Tech,, it died after 3months,, I then bought Infinitum,, and had it for about 12 months, then I killed it ! I have a F/P hydro doing about 8 amps on my big set-6x2volt Forklift bats. No idea of capacity they didn't have much to start with but now keep the house LEDs and 1x50watt halogen going no trouble for a week or two. I killed the Infinitum by inadvertantly reconnecting the hydro after it had spun up to heaps of revs unloaded. The resulting spark took out the $1500 inverter, permanantly, as well. 
If anyone interested in these things, and has a "Tcoil" hearing aid,, you can tell if it is working -- it sings RF close up to the hearing aid! I have a Dick Smith clamp DMM and the Frequency mode showed the thing singing along. My question is,, If you took a relay, "normaly open" stuck it across your battery so that it buzzez like crazy,,, then took an automotive coil,,hooked the secondary with a diode, through the battery and the primary fired by the buzzer ----- would you have a very powerful desulphator??? Am off to hospital for a while,, but will have a look see what you think when I get back, Cheers Mike |
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Mike There a a lot of ways to make a desulphator and I too have experimented with various devices in the past, the frequency works well between 10 K and 20 K htz this depends on the battery type and capacity, gell and SLA seen to respond better to the higher Htz and larger FLA batteries to the lower end Htz. I did build a large one from a CDI ignition unit I had laying around, I triggered it with a saw tooth wave VFO both where Jaycar Kits in the stone ages, it worked very well but consumed several amps of power, also it generated some dangerous voltages if unloaded, and I believe it could have damaged some of the more sensitive electronic devices available now. I now use the infinity units as I do not have the time to play around with super duper high power units. I deal with early stage desulphation now by different methods as documented in the start of this posting. I see the the infinity unite as a maintenance unit in a large battery system and as a battery reviver in a single unit to battery situation. I havent managed to destroy one yet so you must have really given it heaps. If you can find an older brush type generator to charge your batteries the batteries will last longer than a soft alternator power supply. I believe this to be caused by the spikes generated by mechanical rectification which the batteries are subject all the time but particularly when in boost charge voltage, (31 -33 volts in a 24 volt nominal system) All the best Bob P.S. Watch out for the nurses. Foolin Around |
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isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Hi all , Bub 73 and I were thinking of the model T Ford buzz coil but these type will use a lot of energy to operate and you would have to be very careful of sparks. Btw my infinity is still working good two yrs now. We haven't had to many battery's to work on this summer so far. Be Safe out there Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| isochronic Guru Joined: 21/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 689 |
This is just a thought - but - it may be worth using low temperature (?). The logic is, at high electrode potentials (as in zapping) dissolved sulphate forms peroxydisulphate (also known as persulphate), which may reform the plate by converting lead sulphate to the lead oxides. Peroxydisulphate is manufactured using high potentials, a lead oxide electrode and chilled sulphate solution; it decomposes slowly at room temp and quite rapidly once warmed up. The lead oxide electrode is used to inhibit oxygen production which otherwise ceilings the potential. Maybe whacking some persulphate in would work ! Be careful though. ***  I take no responsibility whatsoever. ***
(edit) Thinking again, that could have value - if a sulphated cell has two lead electrode plates all clugged up, it will not pass current. But if the lead sulphate in the plates is chemically converted to lead oxides and then recharged ...one plate will reduce to lead, the other will bubble oxygen, and the cell will be reformed. I guess you'd have to get the plates out and leave them in the persulphate, it might be a slow/no reaction though. I saw a method once which was based on emptying the acid, adding sodium sulphate solution and charging, then replacing the acid. Don't know if it worked. |
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WindyMiller Regular Member  Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 62 |
Removed for errors in the engineering of my ideas. Robert |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
We are working on one of those silver 12 volt car battery's that lost its charge , and we took it and a plastic dish pan and turned the battery up side down and drained it. The acid came out and some black looking stuff. We put that in a plastic water bottle. then filled the battery with rain water and let it run with a desulator and charger on it for a couple weeks and drained it again, the water still had some black looking stuff in it,After settling for a day it looked a light brown in color. So we put that in another bottle and after letting them set they settled clear. We then re filled the battery again with rain water and went the same two weeks charging and drained it again and this time the water has a milky look to it and is not settling like the first two did. any one have any idea's? We refilled the battery with the original water trying not to disturb the settling's on the bottom and with no charging it showed about 10 volts . Several hrs later on the charger it is up to 12.5 volts so we hooked it to a different charger and desulfator and let it run for the night.time will tell i guess. '  '
Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Isaiah Interesting experiment you have there, the dark grunge is usually what the plates shed when the lead corrodes and the plate filler is displaced by sulphate. In the large industrial size batteries that grunge builds up in the bottom of the cell until it shorts the plates, if the battery has a removable top you can lift out the plates and clean them , decant the acid and clean out the grunge, it will usually revive a sound cell. When you turn a battery upside down a lot of the grunge is caught in the plates and can take a lot of flushing to get it out, best of luck with your experiment. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
As Bob said, the brown stuff is lead oxide that the plates are made of, the more brown sludge removed the less remaining on the plates, or the more stuffed the battery (cell) is. If its fallen off the plates then there is no way to put it back on, all you can achieve here is removing the sulphate crystals that may have coated the plates preventing the acid reaching the plate surface to form the chemical reaction needed. The lead oxide sitting in the bottom of the battery wont make one bit of difference to the battery operation as long as it dont short the plates out like Bob said, remove it if you want, but it aint going to fix a stuffed battery. With todays batteries if there is that much lead oxide on the bottom to short the plates out, then there is no lead oxide left on the cell anyway. The milky stuff is most likely the sulphation (sulphate is white crystals) breaking down and saturating the water. The simple fact the volts rose up so far in a short time on charging would imply to me its a shagged battery, but the more important thing to note on recharging is how many amps it draws from the charger and for how long it draws the higher amps. You might think of it as a battery soaks up amps (not volts) and the longer it takes soaking up higher amps the longer it has storage to supply those amps when its used. So lets say your battery soaks up 10 amps for 2 hours on the charger then the voltage rises to 14 volts, this would mean you would have 2 hours working time with a 10 amp load, or 1 hour with a 20 amp load, in other words the battery would be stuffed. Now if it spent days hours soaking up 4 amps (small charger) until the voltage rose up to 14v then it might be a worth while battery. The bottom line is if you cant put the amps into a battery, you sure as hell cant get more out than you put in. Good luck. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Thank you both for your reply's. When we replaced the original solution the battery had around 10 volts and the charger was putting out around 4 amps and the charger is the old 1920's era Tunger with a updated rectifier on its lowest setting. We will let it go a few days and see what it dose on a load test meter and if it will hold the charge over night or more. What I think we are seeing with these modern battery's is one of the cell connector straps becomes disconnected from the cell. These connectors and where they are connected to the cell is quite fragile. Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Isaiah It could be that you have a shorted cell to indicate 10 volts, but time will tell, one thing about these experiments is that if the battery doesn't come to 100% it still can be used for emergency LED lighting or running an emergency radio even if one cell is dead. Using a up converter Boost or down converter to get the required voltage, a couple of amps goes a long way with some of the little electronic gadgets available now. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Hi All Has anyone any information on a Heyer model 46A battery charger ? '  '
This charger has three wires coming out to the battery one looks to be a dipstick to put in the cell, dose any one know of these? I read something on another forum , they didnt know either. This one has some different features we may get a picture of it up later. Bub73 updated it to solid state rectifier. '  '
a slow miserable winter we dug out some old stuff to work on to pass the time. We hope every one is safe and doing good in these days. We have had a insane winter far as the weather above freezing then way down to 0 or so snow then it warms up and melts of may get up to the hi 40 or 50's F then at night way down.'  '
Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Well I guess nobody else has had any experience with a Heyer 46A battery charger. The dip stick function we had to by pass, We added a out boarded a solid state rectifier out of a truck alternator . This made it a wonderful battery charger as it brings the battery's up with out adding very much heat. I think we will be using it as a equalizer charger to bring all the batters in the bank up to full even charge. This charger has a heavy wound transformer in it with a lot of taps so you a good selection of voltages. So if you see something at the flee market or in the dump it might be worth a look!! I wouldn't trade this old charger for a truck load of those made in CHINA! Isaiah & Bub73 URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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MrDelanco Senior Member  Joined: 12/11/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 101 |
Remove by draining half the battery acid from each of the bad cell's. Mix 4 ounces of Epsom salts into 1 quart of warm distilled or boiled water, dissolve salt in water thoroughly. Refill the bad battery cell with the Epsom salts solution until the top of the cell plates are completely covered. Place a low trickle charge on the battery overnight, with the cell cap's removed. The Epsom salts should remove the deposits on the battery plates which previously prevented the battery from taking a full charge. Check the battery after the overnight charge. If the cell shows a charge then place the battery on a normal charge overnight. If the battery still won't take a full charge it is gone. If the battery has taken a charge, replace the cell caps and use your battery normally. Good to have a trickle charge on the batteries when in storage, a small solar charge daily will help keep the batteries in peak condition during long storage. I use a small solar cell from old lawn lights for each battery cell. Regards Bob. MrDelanco:Project Videos It is not only too know what it does but to understand how it does what it does. |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Good tip Bob. We haven't tried it that way as yet , but will give it a try if we run across another battery with those problem's We haven't came across many battery's to rescue this winter. Glad to see some new interest in this post. Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Fascinating thread guys. It makes a big difference hearing other people's practical experience, what has worked and what has not. Anyhow, I just purchased a 45 year old Wisconsin 5Kva standby power generator for fifty bucks on flea bay, that the previous owner had long since given up on. Mechanically it is in amazingly good condition with plenty of compression, but the magneto high voltage coil winding was open circuit, and the carby was removed from the engine and looking none too healthy, and the original open pulley rope start was a real proper bastard to use. A different carb, a real ignition coil with a 12v wet battery, (instead of the magneto), and a Ford Falcon electric starter motor and ring gear has absolutely transformed it. Now back on topic. The question now, is how best to build a combined battery float charger and desulphator that will keep the starting battery healthy for months and years with little or no attention or maintenance. The commercial desulphators all bleed energy from the battery to then feed it back in the form of fast high current pulses, you also need a separate battery charger as well to replace all the lost energy and cover battery self discharge. A great many of these commercial desulphators appear to be of fairly limited power and not really up to the job for the larger size of batteries we here are mostly interested in... So I am having some ideas and fantasies about all this and would welcome comments and opinions. Designing some suitable electronics is for me pretty simple and straightforward, but what I need are ideas of what is actually needed. A dream wish list if you like. Input and ideas from some of you old experienced hands would be highly valued. What would be nice would be a proper temperature compensated float charger that fed power into the battery in the form of fast high current pulses to both maintain the correct battery terminal voltage through all the wide Ozzie seasonal temperature changes, and stop the sulphating process before it can even begin. I have already prototyped a fairly simple circuit that generates genuine eight amp pulses with an inductive discharge, that runs off a 15v half amp plug pack and puts a half amp average dc current into the battery. The externally powered desulphator should be powerful enough to charge the battery without an additional charger. That is the grand plan. Half an amp is not a lot of current for a large battery, but it is not really intended to charge a dead flat battery, but keep an already charged battery fully charged over long periods. This desulphator will be a lot more powerful than most, the Infinitum is rated for a 1.5A peak pulse current. This one as it is right now is eight amps peak, with 350 Hz pulse repetition. Now the question. Should the charger always pulse to full power and just suddenly switch off when it reaches exact float voltage, and then cycle on and off in bursts ? Or should the charger pulse continuously, but the pulse energy be modulated gradually downwards right down to zero if need be, to maintain correct temperature compensated float voltage ? I have no personal practical experience with using these new fangled pulse desulphators, but from what I have read on the internet, they can be left connected continuously without any detrimental effect. Some of the commercial designs also appear to be a bit wimpy and unreliable. It has been many years since I messed about with lead acid batteries, even successfully exploded one once on the charger. Back then these electronic desulphators had not been invented, so for me it is something all rather new and interesting. Cheers, Tony. |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
We had a v 4 Wisconsin on a hay baler years ago and it had a long shaft Ford starter motor with a step pulley on it and a large v pulley on the motor, we put the belt on jumped the battery and when she started the belt would come off. I still have that starter and pulley in the shed. Here in the USA they would stick the valves over winter , so we would dump a qt of oil down the exhaust and turn it over a couple times . It helped keep the valves free. Ill let some of the others more knowledgeable than me help you out with the desulphator , That dose sound like a good project. That Hayer charger I posted about dose a good job of bringing the battery up without much heat. We have had some good luck with a couple very early UPS'S and modifying them to be a maintainer. We have one on the plow truck all winter and has done a good job. We only had to plow twice this winter so it kept the battery in good shape. That is all the truck dose at this point. 1973 jeep J10 with 360 ci engine auto trans. Keep us post on the desulphator project glad to see the new post. We also have had several HI Decibel events with battery's be careful and wear safety glasses and other safety gear when working on battery's! Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Some of the Wisconsins did come factory with electric start, but the parts have not been available for many years. This particular one is 45 years old. Many people fit those pulley driven starter/generators used on golf carts and garden tractors. But the 12v starter/generators are are much more expensive in Australia than the US, and don't work particularly well either starting or generating. I just bolted a turned down Ford flywheel and ring gear onto the front of the Wisconsin, and used a Ford starter motor bolted to a big outrigger bracket. Way overkill, but cheap easy and practical, it certainly does the job. My aim with the desulfator is to build a simple practical unit that will run off a normal small plug pack, using readily available low cost parts. If float voltage control is automatic, just plug it in and forget about it. It also needs to be very energy efficient to be practical. If it's cheap enough, multiple units on higher voltage batteries also become a practical proposition. This isn't going to be a commercial product, just a simple home brew project that I plan to share with other Forum members here, once it is up and running. Cheers, Tony. |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Hi Tony, Batteries that are designed as backup batteries will handle charging 24/7 due to their lower acid density, low charge voltage and the air con that keeps them cool. A standard battery held at charging voltage on a hot summers day will lose water and rust from the acid even with temperature compensation. You would be better off giving the batteries a rest period, I have had good results with a simple mechanical timer set for an two hours per day. The timer also lets me use a slightly higher amp charger, this means the charger and battery don't need to be so closely matched and it helps the charger keep up as the battery ages. The cheapest grade of low maintenance automotive batteries will die early no matter what you do. Better to spend the extra 6 to 10 dollars and order the medium grade version. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Still playing around and experimenting here with this. Tapering the pulse charge energy down as the battery voltage rises towards float voltage does not work very well. As soon as the charger is removed the battery voltage drops very quickly from float 13.8v to around 12.8 volts. So the charger and battery are fighting each other and the terminal voltage just wanders all over the place. Changing the time constant of the feedback loop over a wide range does not seem to help. If the pulse charge is continued at full power on up to 13.8 volts, then halted completely, the battery voltage still falls very quickly, and the charger then quickly cycles back on. I had it cycling all last night like this, on and off about once each second. Turn off voltage 13.8, turn on voltage around 13.6. In the morning it was cycling exactly the same, with no change to the cycle rate. What I will try next is keeping the off voltage at 13.8 and setting the on voltage much lower, say 12.5 initially, which should give the battery a reasonably long rest period and behave similarly to fitting a timer. Cheers, Tony. |
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Madog Newbie Joined: 27/01/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 25 |
Hi Guys, I have been playing around with all sorts of technology for most of my life & it has been a while since I have been back to the GREAT BackYardShead ! I got to Page 5 & Figured it would be Quicker to Post a Question. Like many I have suffered several times with Sulphured battery. I have two charges neither of them mention desulphate on them ! My Question is How do I Now or get a battery Charger with the ability ??? I can't ever recall seeing that term before. Small minds discuss people, Average minds discuss events, Great minds discuss ideas, Be GREAT ! See this Great engine with No Crankshaft: http://www.revetec.com |
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