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Forum Index : Solar : Solar Farm Practicallity
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Madness Guru  Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
If most of the power being generated at one time is coming from solar who is going to control the frequency? As I understand it grid tie inverters just sync to the grid and the big generators control the frequency. But too much solar and what will happen? There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Well, one way could be the very precise time derived from the global GPS system. This should enable the synchronization of independent solar power stations to a common time signal. Klaus |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
I am sure the synchronization problem could be solved with all the smart electronics and precision frequency control, in the old days we used a string of light globes to synchronize and that worked and things are a bit more sophisticated these days. On the charging of batteries it would be possible to have a dedicated charger with extra panels or a generator running on bio diesel to keep with the spirit of things. I had a 1000 kw national power plant not so long ago that run happily on sunflower oil and water injection.The other thing that can be done is to charge batteries off the array as loading varies as it is prone to do. On my setup the batteries are charged direct off the panels and as the regulators cut back when fully charged the power is then prioritized to the GTI, same thing just bigger. If an amicable arrangement between farmer and power company could be reached it may be possible to use off peak power to charge batteries helping them load balance their system. I agree with you Vic as farmers are hard to change as if they have a system that is working they won't change it to an unknown and unproven concept, once it is proved the you won't be able to provide enough power. Where I come from in Victoria most farmers used off peak power for irrigating as it was much cheaper and hardly any evaporation at night. Murphy's Law 32-4 : States when walking on the top strand of barb wire do not tap dance as a squeaky voice will result. [end quote] All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Here too, they use off-peak power also always if they can, night time and weekends. Night time has the advantage of less evaporation. But daytime is their preferred time to water, tis a mongrel job running around of a night unblocking sprays etc. Of interest the larger concerns 10000 plus trees have fully auto irrigation, soil moisture sensors, wireless relay stations etc with some who are in mobile range using Iphones and smartphones to monitor their pumps. Thus their adoption of technology is not the stumbling block, tis the uncertainty of a big outlay for unproven solar. There is a stigma attached to RE, simply it is being pushed by an idealistic section of mankind who has far to much media coverage, that is as I feel from the meetings I`ve attended re this project. Family farmers especially are realists and contrary to the continual crap they cop, are practising environmentalists, they have to be, the next farmer on their land is their own son. I am talking the majority, of course there are those who are ecoterrorists. Softly, softly We can`t change this overnight. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Vic The question is can solar compete with the off peak rate to make it worthwhile to use solar on the day rate, it seems to me that it would make it difficult to compete. The automated systems now available make night use a viable option with ground moisture monitoring to look for blocked drippers / sprinklers. Sounds that they are already tech savvy and a progressive lot so that's a positive, as grid prices rise as they surely will your system will be more competitive. I can see it will be a slow process but will avalanche once accepted as a reliable norm. Just have to sneak up on it I suppose As time goes on the figures will improve and with the ongoing tech advances in the solar industry we will see a increase in efficiency and hopefully a decrease in infrastructure costs and if the storage system can be established it will be a real winner. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Had a interesting private chat with a farmer, he just wanted info had a look at my small system. Went away in deep thought, if he does anything it will be on his own bat, he`s as impressed with committees, coops, bureaucrazies, political correctness, etc as I am. Promising the wheel is turning, not in my projects direction but in the general direction. These fellows get together over a beer, informal chats, but I suspect they are the most progressive with these folks. Regardless of opinions they are the backbone of our society, the drivers, we are just Code monkeys.  Keep you informed.
We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| anteror Senior Member  Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Can you feel it ? The change ! I feel it. Antero |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
The stumbling block is usually financial with farmers. Their businesses go for months with negative cash flow. They can easily justify a business capital expense that is directly related to their industry to a lender when they do the yearly budget. It is a whole lot tougher to sell the idea of something that is not part of your core business to a bank. The banks see increased debt as unnecessary risk to their business, they dont give a stuff about the savings to the farmer, if the money is not coming in or a cost cant be shifted closer to harvest payments, you are a liability to them for too much of the year. You need a farmer that has low debt levels or high monthly cash flows that is not jaded, living in the past or about to sell up and retire to get the ball rolling. Once a few have done it and the proof is on their books, the banks will approve it for others. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Yahoo2, As always you are on the money(no pun intended), fortunately our area has farmers who are 2nd gen, bringing the 3rd gen on. It is a rich farming area made possible by Tinaroo dam and its extensive channel system built back in the 50s. If I cannot generate interest in this area it will be a personal failure. But like you I believe in the potential, and probably, I sense, like you I have a fairly good understanding of farmers. As I will be in very close contact again in the coming weeks working for a harvest and packing concern, I`ll take a few photos to demonstrate how industrious a particular NQ farming concern is. They`ll get a kick out of their "feral" camera in hand acting like a tourist. Feral is local term given to those locals who work for them on a casual basis delivering the fruit to the packing plants. I also take the opportunity to thank the participating 4M members for the insights I have gained from this thread, keep them coming. Might be b.......t to some but not this vegemite. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Friends, If you get the magazine from the RAC (Royal Automobile Club, WA) have a look at the last pages. A company with the name of TERMICO advertises solar panels and claims for a 1.6kW installation a return on "investment" of 26%pa, yes, twenty six per cent, you did read that right! So I contacted them via email and asked them to show me the maths using our 40 cents feed-in tariff, etc. BUT was told to call in a salesman. Need I say more? I might just contact the RAC and tell them this is bovine excrement! Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
I seen some numbers for an area that is on smart meters. they have a high afternoon 2pm till 8 pm of 52 c/kw down to a low of 13 cents midnight to 6 am or something! with a 6.7 cent feed in tariff. A bit of tweaking on power use, a 3-4 kw system and the REC's factored in, I can get to 23% (that's payback in 5 years including interest) If you can still get 40 cents FIT it is probably possible. I couldn't get there with a 1.6 kw system, install costs would be a high % of the overall price for me. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
With: [quote] 2pm till 8 pm of 52 c/kw 13 cents midnight to 6 am [/quote] There are 39c per kWh to contemplate some kind of storage system that would supply peak demand and recharge at night. Inexpensive storage system will come soon I hope, once mass production starts in India or China. George |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All In the longer term the only way solar can become a real problem solver is if a full system incorporates an efficient storage system, of what sort isn't so important when you look at advancements in technology over the past ten years and into the future for another twenty years. For my money now for simplicity and longevity the old nickle iron cells are the most cost effective and reliable, Lipo batteries may come on when a better development of the concept becomes available, now they are fragile finicky and unreliable and about twice the cost of nife cells with the only advantage being their lightness, this is needed for traction use, but not an issue for static installations. Even the old style lead acid batteries of yesteryear lasted for twenty or more years with a bit of care and common sense, and the weight isn't an issue. I have seen huge open construction fully serviceable lead acid batteries still going after 30 years and they where scrapped not because of faults or lack of capacity but just because someone decided to upgrade the telecom system, I am not sure of the capacity of those batteries but by the plate area it would have been many thousand amp hours. Interestingly they where charged by an engine driven generator and had a simple desulphator applied to each cell as part of the service, carried out on a monthly basis. I am a bit of a dinosaur, and so are these systems, but I have never seen any modern systems be as reliable, maybe not as efficient but that's not so important when you have almost limitless energy from the sun available. The same goes with the old rotary transverters probably 10% less efficient than modern solid state devices but they where 1000% more reliable. Once there is reasonable agreement on feed in prices, not the 4-6 cents bandied around now a real business plan can be formulated, but at the moment it is like swimming to Newzeland. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
Has anyone tried to visualise the physical size of such storage batteries that are capable of around 45MwHr. That is about 12 hours for a 3.6Mw turbine (or solar equivalent)? It is possible to do, but absolutely massive. From my readings, it is not economical. I'd hate to be anywhere near such a system if it developed a large short. But then, the future isn't here yet...not everything has been invented. David M. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Mobi The point is that in the future we will have to loose the concept of power as thing that should be there all the time and live with the concept of using power when available, or be prepared to pay a premium for off peak power, just the opposite to now. A power extender and balance system is what I see could be practical rather than a system that supports the present wasteful use of electricity and then complain about the costs. Several centuries ago they ground flour when the wind blew and I am sure they had plenty of other things to do when the wind dropped. And with a few safeguards large batteries are as safe as we can expect a standard of management can make them. Over many years the only batteries I have seen self destruct are the NI Cad aircraft batteries when overloaded by a dumb pilot exceeding their draw of amps on extended startup. It burned a large hole on the side of the aircraft and fell out on the ground, some quick thinking of the ground crew and a fire saved the aircraft. Cause is the small battery to save weight had a time limit of start up current, this was exceeded and the plates shorted internally causing a meltdown and fire. Over 20 years of servicing 32 volt systems not one case of meltdown and only one fire caused by a farmer burning off grass around the battery shed setting it on fire. After a clean up and replacement of equipment the batteries all revived. I have blown up a couple of batteries by welding to close to them but that was me being the idiot and no fault of the batteries. Personally I would much rather live in close proximity to a properly managed mega battery than close to the huge wind turbines you are having trouble with. Also think of the potential of the fuel we carry in our cars and trucks and on the railway, we see them and not notice them any more except on the news occasionally, just think what a tanker load of petrol would do if it went up in a city area, the mind and body shudders. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Yeah the battery issue is a stumbling block, but solar right now can supply at peak usage hours which are daylight hours. Most good solar sites have not got access to supply power lines, and in cases like mine where I have the supply power access are just not being utilised. I see that as a lack of "will" from our utilities(which is understandable they pay 4cents /Kwhr from coal), solar now is a viable investment @ 8 cents /Kwhr plus the LGC, which at its current trading price is a further 3.2 cents /Kwhr. Perhaps the current upper limit of 30 Kw for commercial sites should be raised to 100 Kw or more. Hopefully the Senate will consider such in June this year and stop giving solar lip service. I guess commercial solar requires the lobbying that IWT`s have enjoyed. It will come. Maybe the feed in rates of 44 cents up to 60 cents that were originally offered to 5Kw systems was a mistake, those sort of rates have pushed the cost of power up to high. But those who grabbed those rates were very wise. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| M Del Senior Member Joined: 09/04/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 155 |
I am with you all the way bob. When I did my Tech course's in the mid 70s we sat through safety films every six months. The scary ones were the gas train fires and diesel/fertiliser accidents mostly from the US, but also from other places. One of them had a camera crew knocked over a mile away when a gas carriage went up. All that remained of the fire truck and crew (blokes on ladder with hose close to the carriage) was some of the engine block and chassis pieces. That one melted the tracks etc for a short distance. We had some lithium batteries spontaneously combust early on, the quality seems to have improved lately. So while not as efficient as lithium's etc LA/NIFE batteries have done the job for a long time, are infinitely recyclable and should be doing the job for over a lot of years into the future. I do prefer the little ones for carrying around in radios and backpacks though, but they sure are hard to recycle when they die. Mark |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
I think you should read this story and I wrote today some new details in the page Nro; 2. My story; http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5333&PN =1 As you can see in my latest writing, car industry has finally heard us consumers. This is what we REALLY want and willing to pay ! To integrate home-, car-, solar- and wind power. Practicality ? HERE it is. Antero |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Practicality indeed.. ?? and SO on 
Here in Finland we have built a lot of local, decentralized energy production units, to use wood what we really have here, to employ locally etc We have made a LOT of work to burn wood TO MAKE hydrogen and NO pollution at ALL ! HERE !! ; http://www.gasek.fi/en/ Here also; http://turosteam.fi/indexen.php Also forest improvement in mind etc NOW they are burning coal in these units. BECAUSE you Australians are selling coal so cheap ? Transported here from the other side of the world.. 
Local people that have invested here in forest harvesting equipment etc are here and NOW bankruptcy. Coal smoke ! Is coal smoke THE !? Australians NEW brand for the world, or WHAT ? .. 
Practicality  ??
Antero |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Practicality, that is just nothing ! After Bush 2 there really WAS ! no hope AT all, for humankind !! |
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