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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 11:35pm 03 May 2010
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hi Tinker,
When you are flying blind, programming, as I am, You don't always get things done. It is easy to plot a graph, but there is 10 times more coding to plot the grid lines. I am not even going to try and describe what needs to be done to add text to axis etc. I think I could do it but why bother. All the information about the scaling maximums is on the same page. The graph is selected to be displayed as rpm on the x-axis vs power on the y-axis. On my other graphs, I use colour to identify the graphs. Any graph trace on the time based plot can be turned ON or OFF, and the power vs rpm, or power vs windspeed, there is only one plot. I can possibly see that this program is going to be a bit much for many readers. I cannot really make it simpler, as it would then not be a very useful tool.
Hi Bob,
The cubic power trace reference that I intend adding to the power plotting graph means you don't need to compare with other graphs from other windmills. Any windmill output can be compared to what is required, in real time. In effect you would only need 1 logger, and just move it to the windmill being worked on. The performance can easily be evaluated in real time.
If you want a logger for each windmill for long term power output monitoring, then that is OK, but for monitoring changes then instant results are more important, and a single logger with my intended changes will be all that is needed.
Gordon.
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Posted: 12:04pm 04 May 2010
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Thanks Gordon, now that I know how you read them I should be able to follow. No need to write more code but I was flying blind too looking at your pretty graphs, the reduced picture makes the lettering a bit blurry unfortunately.Klaus
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 01:23pm 04 May 2010
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Hi Tinker,
the blurry pics are a side effect of .jpg files, and the 500pixel size limit on the forum.
I am looking into another option for gridlines, axis labels and a backdrop. I do not intend scaling labels, as this will change depending on individual programming settings. I am looking for a picture that I find OK for a backdrop to the graphs.
On the matter of Pretty graphs. They are even better when they can help get more output from your creation, or mods to a commercial unit. I am thinking of changing the name to "Windmill Analyzer" The program has moved beyond just a logger for a windmill. This is now a tool, with a powerful feature. There is so much that is now different from Gizmo's PicLog. I am thinking of adding a splash screen to the final version with a credit list.
I will need to draw a line somewhere and say enough, but I have some more bits to attend to first.
Gordon.
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domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873
Posted: 11:24pm 04 May 2010
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Gordon,
Great work! If I remember my maths correctly, then that plotted cubic function is a parabola. But I could be wrong.Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.
Winston Churchill
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 12:41am 05 May 2010
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Hi dom,
close. A parabola has a power function of 2, while a cubic has a power function of 3.
They do look similar, but the cubic increases faster at the top end, [normalized x values greater than 1], and drops away faster, [for values less than 1].
Gordon.
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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 12:58pm 05 May 2010
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I have been working on the wind distribution component of my Windmill Analyzer and have just picked a windy day from my records last year. My windmill produced about 2.5kWh over the day.
I have included a plot of the actual logged data here.
The red line, is the battery voltage
the yellow line is the windmill rpm
the blue/green line is the battery current.
This next plot is the power output vs windmill rpm. [The loading curve] The rpm goes from 0 to 400 on the x-axis, and the power goes from 0 to 1000W on the y-axis.
The faint green trace is optimum power. The red is the actual windmill power. This is not from a spreadsheet. There is a little data spread due to inaccuracy of measurements.
This next plot is a histogram plot of the wind energy distribution. The x-axis goes from 0 to 1000W, and the y-axis is the relative occurence of that power level, in groups, 10W increments up to 1000W.
The first graph shows what we think was the case. It seemed windy, as there was a lot going on with the up and down speed of the windmill and the power levels that were seen.
The second graph shows that the windmill did not appear to miss much wind energy capture, as most of the time, the windmill was operating close to the wind energy curve.
The last curve shows the real wind energy distribution. It is clear that there really is not as much energy at the high windspeeds, as these do not compose much of the total wind energy.
These are the sorts of data that are really useful when comparing windmills, and windmill sites. A good windmill site is where there is a lot happening on the right hand side of the wind distribution plot.
These features may become available if there is sufficient interest shown. The amount of interest to date is insuficient to justify providing anything more than basic logging, which will be enough to satisfy most point and click computer users.
It seems that the small group of readers whom have expressed an interest will need to wait until there is a decent pool of interest. I will discuss with Pete some options, and maybe those who are prepared to buy a kit, may get a bonus.
Gordon.
PS edit: I think I need to say, that for those who can work the numbers, that my mods have significantly changed the original Piclog concept. The program is no longer a 144kB .exe file. I have added so much additional coding that the program is now 950kB for the .exe file. There is no coding along for the ride either. I am still working on a help menu system, and this is still a while away, even though I have added the functionality.
PS edit2: Hi Pete, fixed the black dots.
Edited by GWatPE 2010-05-14become more energy aware
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 04:36pm 06 May 2010
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Im even more impressed, well done
This is becomming a monster, but coding is like that and its also the fun part about it.
Im just curious how you get the black marker pen dots off the screen afterwards.
Pete.Sometimes it just works
KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178
Posted: 10:22am 09 May 2010
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I'd been giving this topic a miss as I put it in the too hard and why bother
basket.
That said i just read the lot
and God damm.....
Gordon your work, tireless and exceptional.
one day we will meet and i'm buying the beer.
Top stuff once again
Karl Luck favours the well prepared
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 02:43pm 09 May 2010
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Cheap skate Karl, Gordon dont drink beer.
Pete.Sometimes it just works
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 02:38pm 10 May 2010
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Hi Karl,
Pete is right.
Gordon.
PS :- There are some more technical issues still to be resolved with the product, and the final released software and hardware.
Gordon.
PS edit :- Hi Pete, there were some data points that were obviously noise that was recorded. The paint brush was not quite the same colour in the edit. I could make them go away by magic. Edited by GWatPE 2010-05-12become more energy aware
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 07:44am 12 May 2010
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The windmill analyzer program has had to have more of the original coding replaced. Unfortunately VBasic has some quirks with printing. I had hoped to be able to print screens, but there are problems with ListBoxes. Unfortunately the data that is in the box, is not printed.
I have had a requested to look at changing the way calibration is done. I will need to rewrite this as well. I intend changing things to allow a known calibration voltage, or current to be connected, and these known values would be entered, and a button would then be clicked, and the computer would then calculate the calibration factors. This will be a much faster calibration method, with no trial and error process.
The last significant aspect to be included was automatic detection and selection of the COMM port. I was working on a solution, but was not progressing very well. Luckily, Downwind Pete, had a contact, and had access to some code from a 3rd party, and I have been able to splice this coding written in another language in with my own coding to work with a VBasic command button. This coding access the kernel directly and works to find COMM ports up to #8.
Pete and I are still working through the testing phase and hope to have a system ready to go soon. We hope to have a downloadable version as well. The kit would provide access to full program functionality.
I am in the process of consolidating and reducing the variables, and reducing disk access by adding some Global variables.
I have not progressed very far with the HELP menus as yet either. Need to get closer to the light at the end of the tunnel.
Gordon.
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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 09:36am 13 May 2010
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Hi Pete,
the magic brush went to work and fixed the black dots.
Gordon.
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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 12:17am 14 May 2010
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Hi Readers,
Gizmo raised this point about what would be supplied in the windmill Analyzer and logger kit on another thread.
Here is my reply.
Hi Gizmo,
I think this says what you are asking, so no the windmill analyzer part is not free. The kit would contain all the components and cct board, and the programmed picaxe chip. The software works fully with the supplied kit hardware and programmed chip. Those users with a piclog, who may wish to access the windmill analyser aspects would need to have the picaxe reprogrammed. The original piclog code will still function as a logging unit with this program. The software knows what hardware is connected, and configures as a logger only with the piclog firmware, and as a windmill analyzer with the windmill analyzer kit hardware. If the supplied picaxe is reprogrammed then the windmill analyzer function would be lost, and a fee for reprogramming would be charged. Existing piclog chips could be reprogrammed to work as well, for a similar fee. At the moment the picaxe code would not be supplied.
The Comm port detection and Auto selection, and the user selection of system voltage, maximum system amps, maximum windmill power, and the click select file to view and the zoom within zoom of the logged data, and other additions are free. I am still to add some user personalization touches and the auto creation of prog.cfg and settings.cfg files at startup, if they don't exist. This is additional to the auto creation of logs, excel, and html folders that is already implimented. This will make the moving of the program to a different folder on multiple logger systems more manageable. It can be confusing with which window is which without individual program personalization.
I think any readers interested should show their interest, possibly on this thread, or by PM.
Gordon.become more energy aware
Steve9R Regular Member Joined: 24/01/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 72
Posted: 04:30am 14 May 2010
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yep.. im still interested.. just cant contribute to the discussions so just sitting on the sidelines reading ;)
Cheers
Steve
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 05:28am 14 May 2010
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Hi Steve,
It is good to have your continued interest, and i had hope to have the circuit information out well before now.
The problem has been with small changes being consistantly made due to little problems that has shown up with more testing.
None have been major things but it all takes time to solve and followed by another week of more testing to see if there is some other bug in the system.
For instance i was all set to post this project last weekend till i wired my house through a logger and found there was a problem with the overall scale of reading.
I could get good bottom end, but loose the top end reading or vise versa.
So now made a compramise to allow for readings up to 30 amp.
This should suit most situations and realiaty shows it is more important to see what is happening in the lower scale then the top end.
The top end is really only bragging rights and dont tell you a hell of a lot.
With trying to keep this simple there is limitation but i see little point making this so complicated that it becomes outside of being able to be home constructed or parts able to be accessed.
Could you tell us what it is you would like to do with this and how it will need to work for your situation.
What electronic skills and knowledge do you have.
I would like to get some more people using this system to help with bug finding and would work one on one with those who can make changes if needed.
It has been the same with the software and it all takes time to find and sort out.
Both Gordon and myself dont want to put out something that will give problems.
If any one else is interested in helping with some reasearch and development with this project please indicate this, as i would much rather work with a few to improve this than post something that could have been solved with knowing of a possiable bug.
Pete.Sometimes it just works
SSW_squall Senior Member Joined: 20/03/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 111
Posted: 03:01pm 14 May 2010
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Hi Pete (and/or Gordon),
I may have mentioned, i am interested in helping out with the R&D on this logger.
Without wanting to toot my own horn: Other than the loudspeaker stuff, Analogue electronics and microcontroller embedded systems is my particular area of expertise.
We just had a professional meeting with Parketronics (located in mawson lakes) about how to ensure complete quality assurance testing of the electronics that they will be making for us.
It's fine to design something, but designing a testing system that will:
Test all I/O lines, serial communication interface, frequency response of analogue filter, out of spec overall gain ect ect
And do so in a quick, straight forward automated way by untrained assembly staff is enough to do your head in 2 times over.
Time has been a rather hard commodity to come by in the last week or so because the wife is currently incapacited by a knee injury.
But I'm happy to have a look at the circuit and give it a go if i can get together a copy of the hardware.
Best regards
ABEinstein: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 05:06pm 14 May 2010
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Hi Gordon and Pete
I am watching with interest the development and would like to put my foot in for the full program when its finished, but would need to be a plug and play as I cant even get the leds to blink the way I want so to do a project like this would be like flying by flapping my toe nails.
I am sure that all interested parties would only be to happy to get one that works rather than trying to program ourselves and for more than a few cups of coffee.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 01:43pm 15 May 2010
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Hi AB,
Thanks for your offer and for now will keep it in mind, as what i was fishing for was there some folk that was interested in actually running a logger on an exsisting mill to help reasearch and develop it.
One thing i have learnt, all the simulated testing and best theories dont always prove correct when in the real world under real conditions.
The broarder the conditions the better the reasearch results.
Then AB i guess you know this better than most.
I have considered designing a more advanced logger that is some what modular with more features.
I really dont know why as there is almost Zip interest in this one.
A small group has shown interest in being involved and perhaps you could contribute to this if it gets started.
Quite simply it will be an off forum project as i have tried several times in the past to get something working on forum and it falls in a black hole.
It would appear that SA is really the silicon valley of Australia.
Pete.
Ps:- hope your misses is on the mend soon.
Sometimes it just works
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 04:01pm 15 May 2010
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You all have seen Gordons Graphs of his logging examples, and thought i present a different view of data that is still recorded with the same software using the logger we have been working on.
This is putting the data into a excel graph. Very simple to do.
This is only 40 minutes of my house power consumption.
The bottom (X) scale is in 10 second intervals (241 x 10 / 60 = 40 minutes)
You can clearly see when the heater of the water bed cuts in, and it shows we take some things for granted and pay dearly for some creature comforts.
( the water bed is the spikes you see)
I also turned the tv (32" lcd) off in the middle, and the rest is my base load at any general time.
The argument of the cost of running a computer to log the data, i think is null and void from what you learn about where the power bill goes to.
With a amps/watts reading you tend to notice that consumption is higher at times than expected and you go looking for the cause.
You tend to turn off things as its a guilt meter otherwise.
For instance its costing me 0.4amp an hour to have the display on to be on the net here at present.
So to run the pc and no display is 96 watts an hour cheaper.(not always practical)
Pete.
Sometimes it just works
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 12:57am 16 May 2010
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Hi Pete,
I assume you used the .CSV button to select the data for excel to plot? This saves having to try and find the data to plot from potentially 10000 records in excel.
Those base load power readings are hard to get below 100W. I still have unexplained power consumption in my home.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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but I was flying blind too looking at your pretty graphs, the reduced picture makes the lettering a bit blurry unfortunately.
