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Forum Index : Electronics : Just what to log

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GWatPE

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Joined: 01/09/2006
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Posted: 11:56pm 28 Apr 2010
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Hi Steve,

I know Pete has a kit, in the pipeline.

Gordon.

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Downwind

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Posted: 02:46am 29 Apr 2010
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Hi Steve,

Its close to being posted, i just need to get the final bits all together to make a full artical about it.
Been busy helping other people and this project has got pushed back some.

I did not want to post the data and make changes to it after as it gets messy then.
Actually i made some minor changes to the circuit last night and just need to construct a board and take some photos to compleet the package. time, time, time!!

I will post all the data on circuits and pcb artwork, schematic, code, etc for those that are able to make their own from scratch.

As well as offering a compleet kit of all parts including a circuit board and mounting box, a CT, and a usb to serial cable all included in a kit form.
The picaxe in the kit will be preprogrammed so it will just need to be plugged into the socket.

Its nice to know someone is interested in our work and is a inspiration to get this together and on the forum.

Bare with me it not far away.

Pete.
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Steve9R

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Joined: 24/01/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 72
Posted: 06:17am 29 Apr 2010
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excellent.. keep us updated.. I'll definately be on the build list..

Cheers
Steve
 
GWatPE

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Posted: 09:19am 01 May 2010
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I have continued to make more changes to the piclog2010 app. There were a couple of quirks that I could not see any way around. One that continued to frustrate was the accumulated watthour reading on the main output window. There are times when installing programs, or following an application failure, that the computer may need to be restarted. Whenever the program was stopped and then restarted, the displayed reading would reset to zero, and then start counting up again. The amount of accumulated power between certain times can be obtained from the graph display window, but the running daily total would not necessarily indicate how much power was made in the day. The timebase is from midnight to midnight, and is not easily altered. The accumulated day data is reset at midnight. The loss of the accumulated watthours reading is something I have now fixed. The program will now check the logging directory for prior accumulated records for the day. If there is a logging record for the current day, then when the piclog2010 is started, any number of times per day, the watthours is recalculated from the stored data and the watthours since midnight is displayed. The program cannot however fill in blanks in the logging record, when the piclog2010 was not logging.

I have also added code to display the current days data in the first instance upon opening the graphing window. Previously a file to graph had to be selected from the list. The latest days data file is at the very bottom of the file list window [this is a DOS feature], and usually the last days data is of interest first. This mod, now allows this data to be available first, and then other days data can be found and displayed if needed. This had bugged me and others, with the need to scroll down the file list, just to view the latest day.

I am looking into an aspect of serial comms that has surfaced with multiple logging apps on the one computer. Electrical isolation of the logging hardware from the computer has now come up. I have an optically coupled bi-directional comm solution planned. Powering the interface from the available signals is required. This will be an alternative to a radio tranciever option, that has higher power requirements, and problems with channel separation.

I would appreciate some ideas from other readers on possible new features that could be added.

Gordon.


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GWatPE

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Posted: 08:31am 02 May 2010
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From the general lack of feedback and ideas I can only assume that most readers are not needing to perform manipulation of logged data, to allow making informed decisions on how well changes made to a windmill system affect performance.

The ultimate goal for a logging application is to gather data, with the objective to compare say output power with say mill rpm. I certainly use this type of data visualizing with the help of a spreadsheet. Too often the only solution is to log for a while, and then export the data into a spreadsheet and then plot the sorted data sets. I had asked myself many times, how good would it be to get a real time update, say in windy conditions of a graph of the windmill output power versus say the windmill rpm.

I have an option of incorporating this type of feature into the piclog2010. This may include a button on the real time window, that opens up a small graphing window, that plots the selected data points. I may be able to even add a button to the graphing window that allows a similar plot to be made of the historical data displayed in the window.

It really is a chore to have to store data and then use a separate program to have a look at it in a more useful way.

I have a fair bit of programming to be done before this is achieved, but hopefully it is not beyond me.

Gordon.




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VK4AYQ
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Joined: 02/12/2009
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Posted: 09:42am 02 May 2010
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Hi Gordon

I can see how your logging can seriously help me to do some of the things that I am working with, and realy lookforward to the project being finnished, the problem that I have is that I dont have a clue at the tech level you are working at.

I would like to be able to monitor several mills simultaneously to compare blades of different types, for start up speed loading and saturation and also compare to the VAWT to be able to work out a format for comparing all blades for different speed loading and relative torque output.

I am sorry I cant contribute any meaningful work to help the development but look forward to the finnished project, but if there is anything that I can help with let me know, as I could do something on the mechanicle side if that is needed.

All the best

Bob
Foolin Around
 
GWatPE

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Posted: 02:44pm 02 May 2010
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Hi Bob,

the aspects of logging, and comparing various data sets requires objective recording of the conditions and the settings and observations used at the time of the test.

There is no reason that multiple windmills could not be monitored simultanously, and the performance of each could be compared in real time. I have not finished the coding yet, and I thank you for your offer to help. I don't know how you could help with the programming, maybe supplying coffee. {sorry I think you mean making an electronic torque sensor}.

The program is primarily intended for monitoring say the electrical output for various mechanical changes.

fillm has used a piclog to monitor 2 windmills simultanously.

I have used logging in various forms for many years, to help in the optimizing process of a windmill electronic Maximizer. A micro version is still on hold. I used logging to confirm the benefit of capacitors in various arrangements on improving windmill loading.

Over the years, I have not been able to perform any realtime analysis of windmill performance. The aim of my new coding is to allow the production of a windmill loading graph in real time, or rapidly examine historical data for comparison.

Ideally a logged experiment will require a manually written log that fills in pertinent information not able to be directly recorded. These are the objective observations and measurements that allow day to day comparisons that relate to particular windmill parameter changes.

I should warn readers that logging can reveal how well a windmill performs, as well as how badly.

The power loading v rpm graph is probably the most useful indicator of performance[shape of the graph plays a major role]. In theory, the logging of a single wind gust, with enough data points, plotted as a power v rpm in real time will be all that is needed to compare if a change to the windmill, improved the performance.

This is what I hope to achieve.

Gordon.

PS I have not been able to successfully correlate windspeed with windmill performance where I live, so I use windmill rpm, as my comparison base. There may be locations where it is possible, and in this case, windspeed should be used instead of rpm.

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GWatPE

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Posted: 03:29pm 02 May 2010
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Just an update:

I have just tested stage one of the real time wind power curve plotting function, and it works, so now to pretty it up, and work on the historical data aspect.

Gordon.


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Downwind

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Posted: 03:32pm 02 May 2010
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Hi Bob,

There is a couple of limitations of logging several windmills together and that being, having enough serial ports on the PC, as each mill will require its own logger to be fitted to it.

Although i have had good sucsess with using USB to serial cables, and with the use of these and a usb hub you should be able to go upto at least 15 serial / usb ports, although i have not tested the use of a high number of loggers running together through a usb hub.

The other limitation is the software will only show a plot for one logger at a time, so to view a overlay of several mills would require some copy / pasting of the data into a excel spread sheet and then plotting it with excel.
It would not be a over difficult job to do.

On average very few poeple would log more than 1 mill, so i dont know if Gordon will advance the software to show several logs overlayed in one view, or if this is even possiable to be done in PicLog.

Pete.
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vasi

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Joined: 23/03/2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 1697
Posted: 10:19pm 02 May 2010
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I think multi-logging is possible:

This is for data transmission

[< Windmill01 > other tags < / Windmill01 >]

[< Windmill02 > other tags < / Windmill02 >]

For every windmill there is a database. The PC application can show monitored data for all windmills at once (let's say 4 windmills)

All windmills can be monitored same time and also 4 battery banks with their own shunt is possible with one controller.

I said 4 as example, can be less or more.

For wind you need only 1 sensor but for every windmill you need one second rpm measuring. You can check batteries and send data after every second of pulse measuring.

All data can be displayed at receiving time.

I think is doable even with Picaxe (or first with Picaxe).


Vasi

P.S. I wanted to ask here at "Just what to log" topic how many ADC entry we need (min and max), how many digital outputs (min and max) and how many digital inputs (min and max) for a controller. What is the minimum for one system, then we can know how will increase when we add more windmills and separate battery banks...

Hobbit name: Togo Toadfoot of Frogmorton
Elvish name: Mablung Miriel
Beyound Arduino Lang
 
GWatPE

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Joined: 01/09/2006
Location: Australia
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Posted: 11:07pm 02 May 2010
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Hi Vasi,

I have already rejected logging of multiple sources into a single database. This would fall into the realm of NOT a DIY application.

I really see no benefit of going this way. There is no way to synchronize the data format. At the moment, the plotting is purely "one graphed data point per logged record." The time is merely displayed for that record, but it is not used on the axis scaling as such. Check if you like by running the piclog for an hour, stopping for an hour and then running for an hour. The plotted output will be a continuous line, but there will be jumps in the displayed time. You would need a single timebase for the logging, and a single database, and this would require one program to handle it all. VBcoding gets a bit slow for even a doubling of the data, so what you are contemplating would make the program almost useless. Someone may put there hand up to write a complete application in "C++". I don't have enough useful years left, and this would need to be a commercial app, to justify the effort.

BTW :- I use a similar decoding of data from the current cost "CC128" power logger I made. The data string from the sensor is over 1200bytes, and I end up with 6 channels of raw data, that becomes 12 channels of recorded data. Even at this relatively small number of data points, the program complexity increases at an exponential rate.

I see no benefit of restricting viewing to only the same time window. With separate apps, you can compare data from one system today, NOW, with data from another day, or even the data from a controlled test. The graphs can be viewed simultanously, on the same screen, but not on the same axis. You can always resort to a spreadsheet to combine similar data from different days and times on the same axis.

I do thank you for raising this, but I will give it a miss today on the piclog2010.

Gordon.

.

PS Edit: I see the best scenario as one piece of hardware for each smaller system component to be logged. It is better to lose a small component due to a hardare problem, rather than all the logging if combined into a single unit. Remember we are dealing with a real world interface, and not a cyber one. I have a 16 channel system that I still have to break up the viewing of the data with separate apps.
Edited by GWatPE 2010-05-04
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VK4AYQ
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Posted: 02:45am 03 May 2010
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Hi Gordon

I like your last comment on using separate channels to record the info that would mean that the code for each channel could be sent into a separate program and be viewed simultaneously on split screens or on separate screens as windows will run up to four screens at once. if this can be done with multi channel usb on a hub or perhaps through a multiplex arrangement. The whole lot could then be viewed real time on the screens or printed onto graphs for comparison and filing, may also be able to use the multi graph layout to print on one page and store the collected on a sd card in the card reader writer on the computer.

Also there may be a way to incorporate the weather station into the system without being intrusive to the logging.

I'm full of ideas but don't know how to do it.

All the best

Bob
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Downwind

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Posted: 03:05am 03 May 2010
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Hi Vasi,

To answer you question it is basically 1 ADC for Volts, 1 ADC for AMPS, and a input for counting RPM.

The only other input for windspeed is optional, and would only require one of them for multiable loggers.

I agree with Gordon that a seperate logger for each mill is a better way to go than one multi channel logger.

Timing issues on a multi channel logger could be a problem with around 1 second required for a full cycle read per channel would make it slow and useless with several loggers running from 1 chip. (partly because of the RPM count)

There is very few poeple that appear to be interested in logging in the first place and even fewer that would want to log several mills together, so think there is no point to create a single multi channel logger.

Pete.
Sometimes it just works
 
GWatPE

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Posts: 2127
Posted: 04:22am 03 May 2010
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For those readers who may not be aware of how valuable the ability to directly view past or real time data from say the time based version, and a power v rpm base, here are some examples of the same data set, viewed both ways. These can be clicked between each view, for any part of any day over any period in the day.

The RAW logged time based data is pretty standard.




and this is the power v rpm for the same period.





The view also gives a relative feel of the wind energy distribution.

I see this as a most valuable tool and anyone that has built a windmill, or has an interest in windmill performance will realize this as well.

Gordon.


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VK4AYQ
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Posted: 07:49am 03 May 2010
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Hi Gordon

Looks good to me, would it run on say four screens on the one computer that are sized to a quarter screen or would it be a full size screen with four active

Bob
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GWatPE

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Posted: 11:12am 03 May 2010
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  VK4AYQ said  Looks good to me, would it run on say four screens on the one computer that are sized to a quarter screen or would it be a full size screen with four active


Hi Bob,

I don't know how to respond to this.

You need to crawl before you walk etc........

Can you post some pictures of some logged records you already have from your own Renewable-energy systems.

If you have no experience with computer logging, then I would advise of a single channel system first.

Every effort is being made to simplify the installation process of the logger, but with 4 applications, then it will be difficult to tell which one is which. I can personalize my own apps, but this is not what I would normally encourage. My own 7 logging apps are all different and I have separate application and logging folders for each of the different programs.

I now have probably 25 folders of different versions of my loggers. I am attempting to simplify for others, and not make things more difficult.

The application is a complete package. If you can run 4 applications on your computer, then you can run 4 logging apps. As long as you can identify which comm port is for each application, then you should be able to get 4 apps running. I have 4 comm ports on my main board, and 1USB adapter, and a USB device, and 2 prolific COMM adapters all running together. If you use the same brand adapters, then there could be problems with identification.

As an asside, here is a plot of my windmill[raw power output data] plotted against windmill rpm, in comparison with a plot of a cubic function. The windmill follows a similar cubic output. I have no way of proving the power matches the windspeed, but at least the 2 graphs are doing similar things. This windmill had a cap doubler, and series caps in place. This is now my reference graph.





I would expect that most windmills with a good loading reigime will follow a similar profile.

Gordon.

PS: the blue does not show well, so I will make the reference cubic function red, so it is more clear.

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VK4AYQ
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Posted: 02:40pm 03 May 2010
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Hi Gordon

What I had in mind was getting one going to monitor one mill with standard as supplied
blades as a benchmark then trying other blade types on the same type mills mounted at the same height to compare blade performance under identical wind conditions which needs to be done simultaneously as the wind is never the same for long enough to stop a mill change blades and get it going again.


I was hoping to get four loggers going to monitor the four mills at the same time with one on each logger and feed the loggers into four usb ports on a four port hub I have.

I purchased a number of these mills so have a number of them to fool around with and as they are all rated the same 600 watt it makes for a good comparison.

I have tossed the original regulator / control circuit away and gone for a direct three phase rectifier setup.

Interestingly the alternators are all the same whether rated for 12 volt 24 or 48 volts the regulators are potted and do all the regulation limiting and breaking internally.

I was hoping to try different caps to lift the bottom end performance as they produce very little output below 300 rpm

I contacted the makers but they will not give out any info on the regulator or even supply a new one, very helpful the Chinese NOT.

Testing in the lathe has given an output of 42 amps into the 24 v battery bank at 1200 rpm and 28 amps at 780 rpm but as there isn't any variable speed on my lathe I cant do a realistic output graph.

As the plastic rear housing is substandard I have to make new mount for the alternator, which I think is a generic unit sold to various makers. Very well built good solid bearings very little cogging and when you short out the phases it is nearly impossible to turn with fingers on the shaft.

So that is the basis for my blade testing program.

Hopefully it will be a bit more definitive than previous attempts.

At present I am using a hand held ASI an ampmeter a few multi meters and a frequency counter to measure rpm, alomg with a pencil to write it down.

All the best

Bob
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Downwind

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Posted: 03:09pm 03 May 2010
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Hi Bob,

[quote]At present I am using a hand held ASI an ampmeter a few multi meters and a frequency counter to measure rpm, alomg with a pencil to write it down.
[/quote]

But why???

You have a logger board pre programmed, a computer with a earlier version of Gordons PicLog loaded on it, and a CT. All that is missing is someone to wire it up.

It would be handy for you to have a play and record some data just to get a feel for it and a base line of some information to work from.

Pete.

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Tinker

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Posted: 03:09pm 03 May 2010
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Gordon, may I ask a simple logging question?

When I look at data represented in graph style I assume there is a parameter assigned to the 'X' axis and another to the 'Y' axis.
I see no such info on your data logging graphs so how do you know which is what?

I'm sure its shown there somewhere but can you give me a hint where to look?
Klaus
 
VK4AYQ
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Posted: 03:30pm 03 May 2010
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Hi Pete

I am still trying to get it all wired up and working, and the main thing lacking is wind as we haven't had any measurable wind for two months now, the big highs coming across us have got me in the doldrums. Only getting slight sea breezes below 3 ms hence the VAWM interest also working on that when I get time.

Also have been busy doing the new mounts for the alternators and rebuilding the kitchen on the bosses orders.

All the best

Bob
Foolin Around
 
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