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Forum Index : Solar : Deciding if I should build this solar heater
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| Davo99 Guru  Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
I should have asked a more specific question but per duct would seem reasonable. You said the blower was 36X W which would seem right given on what I know my own blowers consume and are marked. I know the blower in my Ducted system pulls a KW and would not be drawing that much power to do a fraction of the air flow. It's a 2 speed fan and the variation is not much high or low which can be seen on the power draw as I have measured and but the noise level and speed of the fan itself. I may speak to mate again today and if so I'll try and clarify. I meant to ask about Dampers as well but forgot.  Was trying to talk him though setting up the remote desktop/ Networking thing whatever it's called to Sync his reloaded Computers after what appears to be a windows update took 2 of them out at the exact same time. I did ask about Ducting and was told he doesn't keep any old stuff but there is bags of it in the mezzanine of the shed, how many houses worth did I want? I may get a Contactless delivery today when he comes past from a Hospital Job. They want to change the airflow and movement in a critical care ward and set up an entry point to minimise contamination if a poXXX infected person comes in. From what he said they are looking at putting a lot of UV lighting in an anti room as sterilisation before people enter. Hope they remember to provide them with protective glasses! Maybe the Nurses will be hanging round in there In their Bikinis so they can work on their tan as well. Yes, My kitchen has 4 outlets, the lounge and media rooms both have 2. CFM of airflow I can't really relate to Practically..... except on Carburettor sizes which isn't a lot of help. Thinking of that though and the small Size that does 350 Cfm, There must be a LOT of gas speed going through the little Butterflies at that rate to handle more than a castle blower will put out..... Although that is a reference I can relate to. Had this discussion last winter about my own AC. He said the temp at the outlet should be a Minimum of 35 and up to 50. Mine is on the lower side but I know that a lot of AC I have felt especially from Split systems is MUCH warmer and I'd say 50 would be about right if not higher. The window Type in the Holiday house would be pumping out air at 50 at least. That thing is hot and blows a gale.... Which does make it still feel chilly when its not blowing on you but swirling the air in the room even when it is warm. Often sat there thinking I'm a bit too warm but still feeling a bit chilled at the same time. Temperature is something I have a pretty good sense of and I'd be a lot of money that thing is every bit of 50 because it's too hot to hold my hand in front of long term. Thing is also a Killer for cooling as well. Then it will give you frost bite. Mate said yesterday that you want the temp higher so there isn't too much airflow to create a draft that makes it feel Chilly but still warms the room at a decent rate. I can relate to that. The air coming out the diesel Heater is Blowing out the 3" Tube at a real good rate and that's about 80o or so. That does not feel at all Cold even when at the end of the reach of where you can feel the output. Not that I think having an output temp that high is either practical of efficient for what you want. I think this is going to be a balancing act and both Tony and my mate are right but will be a trade-off between efficiency of your system and personal Comfort. It seems AC is such a compromise straight off. Warm air coming down out the ceiling is a bit counter productive especially when one looks at the design of the Gas heaters Tony showed. Having warm out come out at the lowest point in the room would seem much better to have the warmth rise up warming everything in it's path rather than heating the ceiling first and layering the warmth down. There I can see a bit of descent airflow to push the air down a bit as being desirable. Of course the primary Function of AC is cooling and the warming is a happy Bonus and then there are the aesthetic and install considerations. If you had an elevated house instead of on a Slab you could easy punch holes in the floor and put in grates like ducted heating has. I miss having an elevated house for that reason. Much easier to install and move things when you can access the floor. In your case I would think that -maybe- you might want to trade a little efficiency for more comfort. While keeping the tube temp lower may get you the best power output, may not be the most comfortable. Then again, if you are not feeling any air flow directly and the room just warms, then might be fine. Trade-off there will be which one makes the room feel more comfortable? While a given amount of energy can be intense with a hotter temp and less air or vice versa, I wonder which one is PERCEIVED as being more comfortable and which transfers the heat into the room more efficiently? I also think the way the room is controlled will be relevant. If you are going to try and keep the place constantly warm with the wood fire or AC at night and keep the temp relatively constant, then the gentle ramp up in solar output will be fine. If you are going to have the place Cycle more, well, not much you can do with the solar anyway. You'll want all it can give morning and afternoon and maybe supplementing so its what it is there. Ultimately I think output temps are going to be best at what suits your comfort and situation... on a given day determined by the weather anyhow. That's sound like something straight forward and specific to determine doesn't  it? Now while you are finishing the heater, doing your work, attending to family Duties and sitting round sipping Champagne and eating Chocolates lying by the pool all day, keep a look out for some solar panels. Got to think ahead with these things and they are the next part of the system of independence. Oh, and why isn't that inverter done already? You have that back Paddock slashed and done under all the fences as well right?  |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
There will be plenty of opportunity to do some experimenting and fine tuning when the big system is operational. The main thing is to build in enough airflow capacity at the start to then be able to reduce if you wish to do so. Cheers, Tony. |
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| rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 852 |
That's very helpful thanks Dave. That makes sense to me too. I notice that when I let it run down below 25 degrees that it feels like it has no heating value at all and that it may actually be cooling things off. Yes, I had been starting to think along those lines as well ... though it almost seems to me that the temperature is still lifted pretty well even with the fan on low. Which of course allows the tube temp to remain a bit higher anyway ... and pump a higher temp but at a lower volume. Haha ... I did weaken last night and checked out marketplace (though stayed off the facebook feed). Found a few interesting offerings ... so doesn't seem too much different to when I last looked a month ago. Here are today's results. Started off all drizzly, gray and raining until lunch time and then improved. I was quite impressed that the output got as high as it did as quickly as it did, once conditions improved. As mentioned below I did stoke the fire up again this morning at 9am ... but did not add any more until this evening  Cheers, Roger |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
I beat you today Roger with a Cunning heating plan..... I opened the doors and windows. It was a beautiful 25 here today, was still 17 at 9Pm which I thought was amazing. A decent breeze blew up which helped push the warm air through the house. Shut up again about 4 Pm and haven't had any heating tonight and it's still 20 where I measure. Supposed to drop back to reality tomorrow with 20 and partially cloudy. Forgot to check the solar generation today which annoyed me. Went out specifically to do that and got distracted. Dog wanted to play and I fed the turtle while I was out and then the Rabbit was due to come in and I noticed my little Dinosaur had come out so he got some attention and was warm as the cats which I then had to feed and then the Lorikeets were screeching round for a feed..... I'm half way to filling an Ark. I have found Panels are either feast or famine. As are the prices. Sometimes it seems to take for ever to find anything worth while and then other times you are out picking up 3 or 4 lots a week. Doest not seem to be any pattern or reason to it. Just have to keep a look out. Check gumtree as well. They often come up on there round here at least. I had a look online today and Found a little 3 Cyl Diesel Kubota engine going cheap. Waiting to hear back from the guy, probably gone already because I haven't looked at anything for a week just my luck but it it is available I'll send someone to go get the thing for me. That would be the holy grail engine for my Co-gen system. But I won't get my hopes up. |
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| rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 852 |
Couldn't have done that here ... it was cold and wet until lunch time and even though we had some sun this arvo, it was still cold. Haha, good to hear an animal lover. I just had another look and saw these two ... 1 2 Only kidding about the first one ... but the second looks like an ok start. They're something I really don't know anything about ... never had any experience with diesel engines. Cheers, Roger |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Don't Dismiss the first one Roger. There is potential opportunity there.... Not that I'm sure you'd want it. I don't get how someone can spend $30K on a system and pull it down 12 Months later... Although in this case... I'd suggest a strong chance they have had trouble with the setup. The panels are clearly cheapies and I suspect poor Quality. Peeling labels after a year means they are either too cheap to use decent glue which gives an indication of the rest of the panels quality or they are older than a year. The address on the label is an indication as well. Those Business parks are Chyneese Dodgy importer Ghettos. They are like walking through some No go area in a dodgy City, you can feel the peering eyes on the outsiders going through their territory. It's a no go zone Fair Trading inspectors Fear to tread. Anything that came though there I would be very suspect of and there are other things in play to back that up on this one. The inverter is an entry level, never had any hands on experience to know about them and of course have read mixed reports... Ones from people whom have them and think they are great because who wants to admit they made a Mistake with a significant purchase and then other reports from people that spent a lot more money are are of the " I have to look good to the other pedantic's on the internet that also know nothing but spending the most amount of money makes me look good even if it's wasted so I have to disparage everything else to save face and get the heard approval" Crowd. They probably also paid top price for 25 Yr warranty panels thinking that means something when it's absolutely useless. The fact these things are over priced, the ad shows ignorance in understanding of what is allowed and the costs of installation which I'd put significant money on you couldn't get any decent qualified installer to touch, are the opportunity. The guy seems to have reduced them from the laughable price of 10K to 5K already. Ad has been up 2 Weeks. If I were interested in them, which you are not for reasons above, I might wait another week and then I'd send the guy a nice message saying essentially, "don't want to be rude but I think these are over valued because no one will install second hand panels and if they did the cost is within a couple of K of a new setup so they are good for off grid only... which I am looking for some low cost panels for. I know it's below your asking price but to me they are worth $1500. Not in a hurry, if you want to give it another week or 2 to get a better price, that's fine but the offer is there if you don't so let me know." ( Now if these were any good, I'd pay 2K but never start in a negotiation where you want to finish. This is a negotiation Technique I use with great effect especially in face to face discussions. If you say offer 100 and they want more, ask if they are willing to negotiate and when they say yes, offer 25. They will then say something like you said 100 before and I will say yes, and you said you were prepared to negotiate so I'm not going to start where I want to Finish otherwise I have no incentive to negotiate. Throws the inexperienced and naieve off every single time. People these days are too worried about seeming impolite or causing offence. I have no such morals or civility. I'd then follow up from the initial contact no matter what they reply ( other than sold which these will never be at that price) in a week and every week thereafter. EVERY chance the guy whom is clearly out of touch will tell you to shove it or have some idiot moronic Come back like " I rather take them to the tip than let them go for that price" ( How the Fluck does that even make sense??) but don't be put off. Had loads of people tell me that then the next thing you get a message " When can you come get them?" All this can be applied to the 2nd lot which are the ones you want. Larger panels and a known, good brand. There is also 7 odd KW of panels there not 5. Guy can't count or really knows beans about the things. If you got them for a grand that would be OK so I'd start at 800 or maybe 7. Also throw them a Bone... " I am able to come and collect tomorrow or at a time that suits you and I won't much you round or not show. I'll let you know when I'm leaving home or give you whatever notice you want" That's a thing for a lot of people because anyone that ever tried to sell anything privately knows more than half the people that are coming never do... or show up an hour later etc. Send them a Message Roger or if you want I will for you. I never feel guilty about offering far below what the asking price is. Firstly, people don't know what these things are worth. Many are stupid enough to say thing's like the first guy... Paid $30 K for them. No you didn't! You paid for the design of the system and site inspection, you paid for the approvals, you paid for the transport and installation of the materials, the wiring, testing, insurance and Liability of the installers and the Company, warranty, more approvals and inspection from the power co, NONE of which they are selling now.... They are only offering the panels and inverter ( and maybe near worthless racking) so the panels and inverter are lucky to have been half the cost of the install straight off especially given they were subsidised in the first place making the hardware worth even less! Of course they also got the power savings which in most cases have covered the costs so they actually owe the person nothing in fact. Very few will ever acknowledge that last point though. The other thing with Pricing is people just look at what other people are ASKING for theirs because you don't see what they SOLD them for which is a very different thing and they just copy what the person before them is asking who copied the guy before him who copied.... and NONE of them have a damn clue because they have never sold them before... unlike myself who knows what the real value is. Other reason I don't have a problem offering way below asking price is because I know how many people have come back to me because I was the ONLY offer they got. I also have a laugh to myself when I recall the several people whom have told me to shove my offer in my moist, dark nether regions and then come back and told me I could have them for LESS than I offered some weeks earlier. I REALLY love those ones! Few times I have said I'm not really looking for any at the moment because I got some others last week but I would take them as spares and offer less again. I have got them as by then, there may be pressure from The Mrs to get rid of them or they are sick of seeing them hanging around. The main point of my ramblings is don't be put off by people wanting too much. Work it in your favour. They are going to get usually no offers because of their over the top prices and any they do get will be something like " I'll give you $100" if they are that skilled in negotiations which just causes offence, so they sit there and the person gets no interest and the ones with half a brain get the message. There are plenty that think they are worth what ever because they say so but you aren't going to win them all, it's a Numbers game and one that costs nothing to play. Bit of sport actually. Other thing is, Bulk lots of panels sell really poorly. People don't want 84 Panels or whatever but I jump on them. I can use whatever I want and sell the rest. I don't advertise as a bulk lot per se, I say I have up to X panels, take one or take the lot. If you buy them at the right price then it's easy to sell them cheap and still make profit. I will buy panels like these I have no interest in myself to roll over but that's not for everyone. Other thing for me is I can sell more up the country than I can take up there usually. Before the country was locked up and the world Shut down, I was talking to the mrs about delivering them to different places. Charge extra which people will pay when they can't get them locally and have no means to collect them themselves and then have a weekend / few days away while we were at it. Wonder if that will ever be a possibility again? I went out earlier and looked at my inverters. Been beautifully sunny here again this morning. At 10:30 I had made a touch over 10 KWh. THAT is why you overclock inverters and can never have too many panels! I'll go out and check the meters later. I think they may be starting to go the right way. |
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| rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 852 |
Yeah, though he says he's moving workshops or something ... may not have even been his choice ... but the peeling labels were a bit of a worry for me too. I didn't even know you could buy a 20kW inverter ... and I can't see myself being able to use it anyway. Would be interesting to see what he values that at compared to the panels. Yes, that often strikes me that people aren't aware that most of the stuff sold can't be legally reused ... it's really only panels that can be used in an off grid situation that have any value. Thanks for the hints on buying and negotiation ... it's an area that I suck at. My youngest brother is excellent at it ... but I missed out on those genes. I'm going to print this out so I can try the process some time. Yes, he wasn't doing himself any favours by just quoting the size of the inverter and not the fact that there were ~7kW of panels. Plus they live in a spot that is a fair way from the city and from here ... about an hour away ... so their market is limited to those who are prepared to travel further than just the next suburb. I like the idea of messaging first etc ... at least they know you are serious and that you're on your way. I wish I could do that ... it's something I struggle with. And you're right about the pricing too ... most have no clue and go by the highest price they've seen of something similar. I've noticed that larger lots seem to sit for ages, though I can understand people not wanting to sell in dribs and drabs ... so their market is really small. I could fit about 48 on the north side of the shed roof ... and because the north wall and the north fence have no shade ... could put a lot along there. When you mentioned the other day about putting up lots of extras and then turning them off in summer because you can't use the excess power ... I wondered about mounting some vertically on the shed wall so that they do ok in winter but do very little in summer when I can't use the extra. I could easily fit another 48 on that wall. Pity our other big open fronted shed isn't facing that way ... I could put a front on it using panels for cladding. That makes sense, though you have to know your prices to know that you won't just get stuck with them. The bulk lots I've seen in the past are usually similar prices to other smaller lots ... so need to get them much cheaper to make anything from them. Great idea ... and your hobby can pay for your time away. I'm sure we'll have some freedom soon, though it must feel like it's never going to end for you guys. Bit like the drought a few years ago ... started to feel like it was never going to rain again ... but eventually it did. Awesome. We've had a bit of sun but still coming and going. I really have to get this finished or summer will be here before we know it. ' I cut up all my beautiful new tubing on the weekend and have 'starred' the end of all 60 tubes ... and next job is to weld them into the angle. We'll see if my practice pays off. Cheers, Roger |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
I think they go to 50 KW now. Like panels that are up to 600W, they keep getting bigger all the time. The local supplier had some 20 Kw inverters earlier in the year. I could literally just lift them with a struggle. Like anything, practice. One thing I love about having sales skills is Buying skills come for free with the knowledge. Good! I printed out what you said about my vids the other day and stapled it in my note book. Fully intend to use that insight in my next Vid. Wuld have done one yesterday and today but I have felt really weird. Bit Dizzy and tired but I can't sleep.... Even when I laid down and the Pup came and snuggled up with me. Which these days does not seem to be anyone in or around the citys. So you going to message him or you want me to for you? I do the same when people are coming to get stuff off me. They don't get the actual address till they are ready to leave. I'll tell them the street so they can plan but until I get the confirm could be any of 32 Houses. That way I don't have to worry about people turning up hours later or whatever. Learned that dealing with Bimbo models. They are required to message me when they are leaving home and I wait no more than 30 Min after the appointed time or if they don't message or ring me, shoot it off. When they are coming by train, They also have to ring me when they get to a certain station so I can leave to fetch them at the time they will be pulling in so I'm not waiting round. People these days have no respect for others time and inconvenience. I don't give them the chance to waste my time and I don't waste others either. That's it. I have said to loads of people, please explain to me how you justify the price you are asking and why they are worth that other than you think they are. I have never got an answer to the question yet other than something along the lines of " That's what I want".... which I point out is again a baseless and completely opinionated number. If people are that stupid then the deal is lost before you even get that far so I have no problem giving them some direct " education". That is it. I have found though that most people want a reasonable Qty. I have sold only a few one offs where people just wanted one to put on a Camper ute or trailer but other than that, pretty much everyone gets half a dozen. There was one guy off his tree just before lockups that wanted me to deliver 2 Panels about 2.5 Hours from home and seemed to think I'd be desperate enough to want to sell them that I should Include delivery to him in the asking price. I actually offered to meet him somewhere along my path when I go north but that wasn't good enough and then he turned nasty. He was not a mentally well person I don't think. He didn't let up messaging me every few days for weeks and then went on like I had some obligation to take them to him. Said he was going to " Report me" for ignoring him. Takes all types I spose. Don't write off south roofs especially if they are not steep pitched. I was looking at my shed south roof today and while the angle of incidence is steep, it's not terrible and in summer, it's nearly as good as north, if you need the power. I have a small array of old crappy 180s On mine I have been too lazy to get down but they do even now make a couple of KWh a day. Would be loads more if I covered that side and cleaned the leaves and Bird crap off them. A quick and dirty Calc for your area shows 10 Kw of panels facing Due south on a 15o Pitch roof is going to net you around 6.6 Kwh a day in JULY and around 24 Kwh a day in January. The north roof for comparison would yield around 12.2 Kwh in July and 24 in January. The latter figure being much the same due to the overclocking and limiting of the inverter. Nothing to stop you putting 2 inverters on the North roof if you wanted. That would give you 12 and 31 Kwh day respectively. No gains in winter, some in summer. If you can get inverters cheap enough, run 1:1. If not, run 1.5 to 2 times the amount of panels to inverter capacity. I prefer that because then I can maximise my yeild without over loading my 40A Circuits. Having the most power possible earlier and later in the day is far more useful than having the highest peak power for a short time. But then again I'm calculating on Grid tie not battery charging so I spose that will come down to simply most square meters of panels, no matter what the direction, Wins! My strong suggestions for ground mounts along the walls and fences is preferably get them up a bit, even 4" is worth while or sit them on something. Black Builders plastic is good or gal sheet metal would be better. Grass will shade the things so easily and they are a pain to trim or edge around. Putting something down and 300 mm out makes a big difference. Ideally, the way to go would be lift them up using some brackets and suspend the things so you could get under them. Also, I would set them at the winter ideal angle which will be around 60o where you are. I just learned something there! I didn't realise how effective this could be. I have read about this and spoken to a couple of people about it. They are doing it on large, tall Buildings in some places where the Roof is small and cluttered with AC and antennas and other things but the wall area is Huge. It is apparently worthwhile commercially even when they stagger the panel coverage 50% so as to let some light in although in other places they just pump the panels out from the building 6 or 12 Ft and cover the main window area and let some light come in above and below the array. Now again crunching some Numbers, Much to my astonishment, 10 KW of panels mounted Vertically facing north at 2:1 ( 5 kw inverter) would give you almost 13 Kwh a day in July! That seemed too good to be true but I just ran all the numbers again, 4X and it is correct! Forget about your south roof, Put the things on the walls and Fences! It's doubly efficient in winter! The summer yield is going to be 9.5 kwh day. The sun angle ( which I forgot is a fair bit steeper for you than me) is compensated by the longer summer hours so that is pretty consistent overall really. I'm pretty surprised by that but not the first time I have been after running numbers with solar strategies. I would have never guessed that a vertical mount could be that effective and look at the bonuses with self cleaning and other things people go on about. Keep your shed a damn sight cooler in summer too. Put some vertically Running rails to mount the things on for convection cooling and would work well. Oh, wait!!.... then you could also look at my idea and duct that air from behind the panels into the shed ( Pull it down not up so you don't cook in summer) and you have a Huge heating array in winter. You are going to be the most enviro friendly, passively heated place anyone ever heard of!! 76 Sqm of panels, Solar radiation is going to be 3.2Kwh M2 day in July so a whopping 245 Kwh day potential..... can that be right?? Seems too good to be true again but that's the numbers.... and I'm forgetting that the heat is so much better than the electrical generation. Must be right, 15o tilt is 2.9 Kwh day. Maybe you better put that Tube array on the wall mate.... or move into the shed in winter. Lets surmise for ease it's the same size, 10 Kw of panels on a 5 Kw inverter. East is going to give you 5.6 Kwh day, West will be 5.7 and south will be... not bloody worth it, 3.2 Kwh a day.... But this shed has a roof too right?  You have a LOT of ability to make my solar generation look like something from one of those little garden lights with a cell on top! Have you thought about going into the brick making business or how about a small steel Smelter... lease out one of your sheds for a Manufacturing business.... power included in the rent.... Going to need a few more toroids for those 25 Warpinverters.... You are right but that comes with experience. I know EXACTLY what I can get for panels and move them quickly. I buy right so I can sell cheap and undercut everyone else so I have no trouble moving the things. In the old pre hysteria world anyway. I'm not a person to go out a lot but not being able to run out for things I want is getting to me. Also not very social either but I'm missing family whom normally annoy the guts out of me not to mention friends I do like. REALLY, INCREDIBLY Pissed about not being able to have the annual get together with friends in July for the second year that's for sure. That's the one highlight of a bad time. I made sure to look this afternoon and at 5 Pm had cracked 63 Kwh. Stayed sunny and nice all day against predictions, how typical! Never cease to be amazed how the weather and the seasons affect solar. And they want to run the whole grid from it. Bwahahaha! Lunacy! I don't know if it would be good advise or not to tell you based on what you said and I calculated to suggest you to put that project aside for now and concentrate on getting some panels up. Would certainly be worth your while over the next 6 Months but would you ever get back to this project if you did? Sorry, should not assume everyone is as slack arse as me, You are an organised and educated man, polar opposite of me so I should not assume others share the same failings. I'm frustrated I have 3 90% completed projects atm that I can't finish for lack of small items. I don't know what I want to online order, have to go and test things to see what sizes I need. You sure have some solar potential though Roger! 96 panels ( minimum) on one shed and no doubt the same on the other... 50 Kw without trying! I'm getting Dizzy. Even I could survive off that in winter! I have long thought about putting some panels on my north shed wall but I think I'll crunch the numbers for that now. I'll only get 9 up as there is an 8 ft hedge I cut down from 14 Ft last year 3M away but, those 9 panels might make a big difference! |
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| rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 852 |
Something I need to learn. I had never actually considered it and it is only about 15 degree slope, so sounds like it could even be useful. Thank you for those figures, it makes a lot of difference having numbers to weigh things up. Yeah, so many options ... I figure that as long as I have a decent size system for the Warpverter and its minigrid ... maybe 7,8, 10kW ?? ... then I could fit a number of other normal GTI's and batches of panels for each one ... perhaps 3kW each ... maybe even 5kW. That's crazy!  Yes, I guess I have to organise the timing of loads to make use of the power while it is there ... and the rest goes to battery charging ... and any more than that is wasted, unless I can work out a use for the excess. Yes, makes sense. The weeds grow like crazy now and I don't want to be running into the panels with the slasher or the whipper snipper. I have no idea if I'd ever need that many panels ... but that wall is perfect for the job. No door or windows ... though looking at the steelwork it might need some extra girts in the wall to screw the supports to. The roof has the purlins in the right place to have two rows all the way along without any mucking around. Should get 48 up there easily enough. Thanks again for the numbers, that is amazing. I had no idea I had always assumed that it would have been pointless having them vertical and that the output would have been too low ... but this changes everything. Haha ... I don't know what I'd do with all that heat ... but definitely worth thinking about. I'm glad you know how to work out all the figures, it's beyond me ... but regarding the tube array ... I was planning that once I had the big one on the house ... I was going to rebuild the test one and hang it on the shed wall and pipe it into my electronics workshop. That won't need too much heat because it is so well insulated ... but it needs more than it's got at the moment. The second shed is 9 by 18 metres and is at right angles to the longer one ... but the best spot on the roof is covered with the pool solar heater ... and then there are 4 great palm trees shading much of the rest. So that north wall is looking good if I ever needed any more after filling the north side of the roof. Haha. I'll definitely be looking for something to soak up any excess power seeing I won't be feeding back into the grid ... either that or buying a bigger battery. Maybe a long extension cord and sell some to the neighbours ... but that would probably be more frowned on than feeding it back to the grid!!! That must be particularly difficult, I hope it ends soon That's amazing, and we're still in winter. I'm kicking myself for not having started all this stuff years ago. Constantly dragging my feet trying to decide which way to go ... but glad to have found all you guys here and all these crazy ideas. Nope ... definitely not going to drop this now or it'll never get finished ... along with lots of other things I've started over the years. That's why I have been reporting on this thread all along ... to keep myself honest mainly ... and to keep a record of the progress ... and with all the help from you and Tony and others as a bonus. That's why I'm writing this so late ... was out there setting up the tubes so I can start welding them into the angle. Got it worked out and set up ... then realised I'd be a lot better off drilling all the holes for the duct floor and cover, before I weld in the tubes ... so started setting that up. Anyway, I'm still making progress. Not that I'm going to stop working on the solar heater ... but maybe I should have just gone all out with panels and used any excess for heating. I've got a whole paddock I could fill with ground arrays ... though the council might have something to say about that. Might as well see what it will do, and you're right, 9 panels is still a potentially worthwhile increase. Cheers, Roger |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Something I clear forgot Roger.... You said you had electronic Meter(s). While they won't wind back, back feeding with a regular GTI will feed your demand and stop you paying for the power... with MOST meters. Some will charge you no matter which way the power flows, I'm unfortunate enough to have one of those but you can easy look up what you have and test them anyway. If your meter is within 10 Years, it should be fine, If it's older it -may- record a charge bi directionally. If you have the newer type, You can back feed to your hearts content and that will offset any usage at the time with power from the solar so it will still lower your bill. 5kw Inverter with 10 Kw of panels would probably cover all your Loads including welding on a sunny day. I'm not sure what the warpinverter and batteries are capable of but if they won't run off the solar effectively when the batteries are Charged, then setting up a GTI or 3 Might be worth while. Long as you have the right meter, would be worth setting up a GTI to effectively eliminate your daytime usage till you get your Inverter and battery setup. You can plug up to a 3KW GTI into the outlet or just hardwire it into the Circuit. Remember, It's not about the 9 Kw they output on a nice summers day, It's what they do when it's overcast and crappy in winter which is probably 2 Kw, if that. Been asked a lot why I overclock my inverters so much and that's it. Limits the output when the sun is out which is fine, still don't come near full tilt when the weather is crap but makes the most it can. I can't remember what is on what ATM, It's all a bit hotch potch but I have noticed the 4 and 5 Kw inverters have been making both about 3.8 Kw Peak right though the winter. They are doing it at different times as one has mainly North facing panels from the roof and the ground array and the other has all west. The shed will have to be re done. There is about 9 Kw of north facing panels up there and it's lucky to make 2.8 Kw. That was my first setup and I have tested the panels individually and checked the wiring multiple times and the output is still crap. I'll take it all down and start again with the better panels I have. Can only push 3 Kw From there so shouldn't need anywhere near than many panels to get the job done. No, neither did I TBH but it just shows the value of doing the calcs before doing anything in practice. I'd advise anyone looking at DIY solar these days to forget everything they read and just work things out on THEIR situation and the resources ( Roof area , direction, ground availability etc) before deciding anything. I have a Folder of calculations I have printed out I have run for all sorts of different scenarios including panels in every direction and every roof tilt I have here... which is only 3 Plus the " Ideal" tilt being latitude which is far from ideal and flat. Yeah, You assumed it because of everything else you read which says this must be like this or like that and thought that was how it had to be same as I did when I started playing with this. As you can see, Bugger all of the parroted mantras with this are realistic. I think it comes from the mentality of 30 years back ( which seems to be the time frame it takes for perceptions to change) when solar was so Exy people had to wring every last watt of of it... as few watts as there were. Now it's so cheap especially with used panels it is viable to face them south, have them shaded if that's all you have and put them vertically... and over clock the hell out of inverters which tend to be the expensive part of the exercise now. I would, stay damn warm all year round! The good part is you wouldn't have to set up all the panels for heating, You could just do a few rows or whatever. With that amount of heat available, it's all you'd need! Then again, there are probably some Valuable ( LEGAL) Crops you grow in your shed with that sort of heat that would be out of season and fetch a good price with Local restaurants etc. Plenty of power For a Hydroponics system if you ever get sick of electronics and want a Change. Even flowers can make good money. 9x18... twice my shed Size.... Be still my beating heart! The Palm tree situation can be Cured, Just apply a generous amount of Chainsaw. Take off the pool heater and replace with panels. You'll get use out of them all year and have enough power to heat the pool electrically for the short time you want to heat it anyway. I was only thinking yesterday how much I have learned with this thread alone here and the mental stimulation it has provided on so many things. Yeah we waffle all over the place and go " Off topic" as so many places get their Knickers in a twist over like the idiotic washing machine site but I think all of us have learned about a load of different things here because of that and that's a bloody good thing. Sometimes Info is a bit useless at the time but it's still interesting and inevitably one comes across something further down the track and remembers and has an insight from what they read which wasn't relevant at the time but is now useful to remember. There has been so many things discussed here that are all Interesting and broadens one's knowledge. It's all related to home heating and self sufficiency and I'm interested in anything to do with that even if I will never use it, it's good to expand ones insights. Definitely one of the most informative and interesting threads I have read in a long time. We have already determined that the efficiency of the tubes is a LOT higher than that of panels and the power you'd get out of the panels in some of the poor weather you have described and got heat out of the tubes would be not comparison. The object being heating, I'd say you have gone with the best tool for the job. As far as ground arrays, here at least council has no Jurisdiction. Mrs Runs the dept of a local council that looks after building and developments and gets calls about solar all the time and says nothing to do with them. Not any rules and regs on it here at least. I think where you would run into approval requirements is when you wanted to start selling the power back to the grid as a commercial generator and that would relate to a development rather than solar per se. Other thing is councils don't go round looking for things, they only know if someone reports it. If it can't be seen from the street ( which people don't know if you have approval anyway) then the only other source of them knowing is neighbours. If you get on with them OK, chances of problems are same as winning lotto. Worked out at 6 Kwh day. That's worth having in winter that's for sure. The sun hits the full wall pretty early on but even with a standard 1.6m panel, it's surprising how far down the wall they come. Seems the wall is only 2.5 tall so i couldn't get another row horizontally under them. I want to plant more hedges along the south fence line as The whole yard is visible from the road through that fence and it did occur that panels along there would make a great Screen. I can Imagine what her whom must be obeyed would say about that! Not exactly the aesthetics I want to have either But would be cheap, effective and provide a valuable secondary benefit. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
When you eventually have your fork lift battery, it would not be too difficult to switch banks of solar panels in and out based strictly on battery voltage. As the battery starts to come up to near full charge voltage, panels can be progressively switched out, along with any grid tie inverters that are connected. The grid tie inverters will just think its night time and go into hibernation. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Is there a max Volt/ amp input for the warpinverters Tony or does one just build it to what one wants? You have a 100V battery From memory, is that set up for what one wants as well or are there upper and lower minimums? |
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| rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 852 |
Thought I'd add today and yesterdays results together. Was happy with yesterdays ... but elated with todays.  Cheers, Roger |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Roger, Its been a glorious day here as well, and the same is forecast tomorrow too. That is really impressive, the way its going you may need to install a room thermostat so it does not get too hot !!! Dave, Any inverter will have some input voltage limitations both maximum and minimum. Minimum dc input voltage will always be determined by a transformer ratio somewhere. Whatever dc voltage there is, must be stepped up to a voltage sufficiently high enough to be able to make a full complete 230v sine wave at minimum dc input voltage. So basically you ask yourself, what is the absolute minimum battery voltage the inverter will ever see ? Then you wind your transformer(s) so the inverter might just be able to reach the required ac output voltage without dropping out of voltage regulation. Battery chemistry, number of cells, how hard you plan the thrash the battery. Its a judgement call really. Upper maximum voltage is often the point where the voltage rating of something will be exceeded, and the smoke comes out. Maybe the mosfet voltage ratings, or the electrolytics, or something else perhaps. The Warpverter is designed to work over a 2:1 dc input voltage range, and that can be ANY 2:1 voltage range. And it will voltage regulate over that whole range. The upper limit may be restricted by the voltage rating of some parts, or maybe not. Maximum current will depend on the ratings of the parts used, the heat generated in both mosfets and transformers and a safe temperature rise really sets the continuous power rating. Short term surge power can be many multiples of the continuous rating. Edited 2021-08-13 18:39 by Warpspeed Cheers, Tony. |
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| rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 852 |
I imagine it's still the one that was installed when the house was built about 15 years ago ... I'll have a look and see what type it is, though I have no idea how it would respond. That's probably correct. Haha ... that's something I couldn't do. If it's all seperate and off the grid ... then no problems. Yes, very good point ... I need reminding all the time, especially when I start thinking I'm aiming over the top a bit. Again, very good point. Yes exactly. Haha ... then I wouldn't need my tube heater on the shed either. I'd better not mention the first shed then, it might send it into cardiac arrest.  I don't suppose palm trees reshoot if you take twenty feet off them, otherwise I would. Yes, likewise. So much of this is new to me ... not the concepts, but the fine detail ... so I am learning all the time as well. The whole forum is a bit like that ... the only trouble is finding the gems when you want to revisit them. I know I've read about something ... but so hard to find it again. That's cool and thanks for pushing me along as well. True, and today was a good example of that. Our place is wide open and can't hide much ... and council employees are up and down this road numerous times each day ... but I'm definitely not concerned ... only if I start pushing a few boundaries. Certainly sounds worthwhile. Cheers, Roger |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
You funny, strange honest people. I'll never understand you!! So much integrity and decency. When running a GTI with a smartarse meter You are not stealing power, you are only providing what you can yourself and then buying ( less) of what you need from the grid. To me, makes no sense nor do I feel any obligation to buy Tomatoes from the supermarket when I have a garden full myself or buy Fuel for the Tractor and other engines when I have Drums of veg oil I can run things off. I very much like being able to make my own power and use as little of the power Mongrel companies as possible. Speaking of which, made a total of 60 Kwh today on the knocker and saw a max of 10.5 kw at about 1 Pm. Checked my meters and it appears I am Just starting to go backwards. I'll check again tomorrow to see how fast. Another great day again today but the evening temps are dropping fast. Using a fan heater on low heat in the kitchen even though it was 20 at 6pm. The heater seems to maintain that which is what I want. Oddly enough, we had a sub zero again here last night. Thought there was something in the bird bath this morning but then discovered it was Ice. Only a little but still. I expect the same again tonight. It takes a bit of getting used to that is for sure especially on a good day. Get a few bad ones and you soon remember though. I'm convinced that ( most) people can't go over the top but then again most people aren't fortunate to have 1000SqM of shed roof area! It IS an unwritten law of the DIY internet Fraternity that you MUST use all you have and not waste any. Better start getting some of those panels! A good reason to take 30 Ft off the things! I planted a bunch of them near my pool at the last place. They looked great for a while but then they grew. And Kept growing. And then the Fronds would die and had to be trimmed off and disposed of. Made for some good Fires though. Then the things would produce those Huge seed pods and the bats would come for them and cover the place in crap. I still have one of those Trees, it was a left over I Put in a pot and is now in a cut down 44. Never got over about 8-9 Ft tall which is perfect. Thing has to be 25 Yo now and has never been very well looked after although I'm growing quite fond of it now having had it so long. I'm might start taking care of it now... and be careful that don't kill it with shock. Maybe if it gets fed and regularly watered it will grow and bush out some more but still not get over the top. Thanks for the updates and the thought provoking discussions! I kept an eye on that wall today. It gets pretty good sun all day. The hedges didn't start casting any Shadows till about 3 :30 and would be under where the panels would cover anyway. Once I lop another 4-5 Ft off them, no problem at all. I was tempted to have a go today and put the chainsaw through them at about the 6 Ft level but getting rid of them is such a pain in the butt. I always seem to have bushes and branches here I'm trying to get rid of. It's hard work Chipping them ans they never seem to grow straight enough to get them in easily. I think I'll make another Burn barrel as the yanks call them only this one will be a Twin Turbo ( blower) for extra capacity and smoke reduction. Good Vid subject as well. I cut the apple tree down a fair bit the other week as that was getting excessive. Want to Chip that and save them and have a go at using them to smoke some meat. Edited 2021-08-13 19:46 by Davo99 |
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| rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 852 |
Ours looks like it will be the same tomorrow too ... another beautiful day. I did ask my wife if it was warm enough now ... and she hesitated. Seems that some of the stations she's on have the aircon on 24 and others on 26. No wonder it's not warm enough here. It's probably her that sets the temperature at work ... but you can see what I'm up against. Here's a photo of my meter Dave ... ... and seeing the ETSA name reminded me I had thought of a name for my heater ... an ETSA ... Evacuated Tube Solar Amplifier ... or ETSAH ... Evacuated Tube Solar Air Heater Just as well I'm not trying to include my name ... a WETSA or a WETSAH doesn't quite cut it.  Cheers, Roger |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Couldn't Find much on that meter other than it's an Email/ Ampy/ Landis and Gyr ( they changed their Name then got bought out) model A-11. By the directional Arrow on the thing I would suggest it's Bi directional... which is good. Not hard to test them, hook up a GTI and see if the arrow Changes Direction and if the thing counts up or Down. Least if you got some more panels now you could hook them up in parallel to give your pool pump a boost. Bit hazy here today. I expect my generation will be in the 40's. Only done 23 Kwh so far today. Personally, with what I have read about the SA power network, I'd be trying to distance myself from them much as possible. How about RASH? Rogers Air Solar Heater. |
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| rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 852 |
Your suggestion about the arrow made me wonder ... if you look on the front, after the arrow it shows 1 Wh/imp ... and then a square block with 10 Wh/imp. Any idea what those units are about? Yes, they have a bit of a reputation. I don't plan to poke them just to see what happens. Haha, love it. Well time for todays update. Only thing different today was that I ran the fan slower than yesterday to see what happens ... on 120V instead of 140V. And coz I slept in, I missed the first half hour of activity. Another beautiful day and very happy with the results again.  Cheers, Roger |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
The graphs are a bit difficult for me to clearly define but if the green and very squiggly line is the temp of the logger that is in the sun next to the tubes, why is it so erratic, showing swings of up to 5o if the day was clear? I'd expect that to look like there was a constant shadowing and then full sunlight all day. Is it just a logger anomaly or something else I have missed? Oddly, where there was an obvious dip due to a large cloud as I take it, the in sun temp did not vary nearly as much as the tube and output temps. The 6.8o temp rise is still significant but how did the higher output temp feel? were you in the house enough to make a judgement on comfort level? I believe the arrow and the block on the meter indicate unit blocks of measurement now you come to mention it. I surmise that LED at the top right flashes with the power use. More power the faster it flashes.... to a point. The arrow is basicly the low range and the square is the high range. You can count the flashes to determine the approx amount of power being consumed. Obviously of the flashing gets too fast that's not possible so the meter switched to the high unit count so each flash represents 10x more power when the block is shown than when the arrow is. I have a meter in my collection that is probably s slightly newer meter that uses an arrow to show direction. It's quite handy actually for experimenting with IMAGS to see which way the current is flowing although an analogue meter would be better but yet to come across any. My generation estimate wasn't too bad today. I was expecting lower 40's but came in at 48 Kwh thanks to the afternoon brightening up again. Even though is was still a real nice day and the have came and went, It sure knocks generation around. Imagine the Deficit on a solar farm 1000X bigger than what people have on their roofs from day to day. |
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