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Forum Index : Solar : Solar Farm Practicallity
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi David All things made have a pollution footprint and that applies across the board even in the recycling to reuse waste, that is why I prefer wherever possible to use something old or classed as scrap to minimize adding to pollution. This isnt always possible but I find more satisfaction in recreating the old rather than buying new stuff made in a poverty country and thereby importing their poverty in the longer run. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Bob, You`ve just landed a position, Project Manager for Certifiable OZ Solar Inc. Pay and conditions are non-existent. David`s handling the Mexican Arm.  Or perhaps we should name it Fossils Inc. Oz today World tomorrow.  Something to get our teeth into, now where the hell are mine.We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
MOBI, My son worked for Iluka, which is a sand miner and from memory Monazite is a by-product, which is sitting in a heap and contains Thorium and is only slightly radioactive. Thorium reactors are supposed to be the in-thing in the future. You probably get the same dose from the "glow-in-the-dark" watch hands or walking past granite cliffs, HOWEVER, because it is radioactive the bureaucrazy (deliberately misspelled) requires a lot of paperwork. That lot also contains a lot of rare earths - unused! They are not that rare. Lynas is processing those products (not Iluka's) in Malaysia and despite gov. approval had more problems than Flash Gordon fighting the Moonlanders with activists there. Where are the magnets coming from for RE if hurdles are imposed? Once again that terrible duality, wind farms OK/NOK, nuclear OK/NOK - no nuclear means no isotopes for my wife's cancer check/Chernobyl/Fukujima. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Yahoo2, Have been struggling through the "clean air" paper of the Govts proposed "Direct Action" you gave the link to. Trying to get an idea of just what is going to happen in July. So far haven`t been able to translate the gobble-dock, everythings normal confuse the reader make him feel he`s illiterate or lacking brain cells, he`ll blink and go away ( I`ve adopted your saying KISS says it all) eg One of the aims stated early in the paper is the to have 1 million households with solarPV, the govt issued a statement on the 9th Jan there were 1.15 million with such. Wouldn`t think the paper was that old. Typo or figures pulled out of the air? Or my translation is incorrect? Most likely the frustrated reader will read what the media translates it to(condensed to 5secs), take it for gospel cause that`s easier. Downwind will flog your buearocrazy if that's OK. Flogged Bob`s Public Serpent a while back and immediately corrupted to Pubic Serpent. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
Once upon a time, alternators did not need permanent magnets, instead they had an exciter to start them off and maintain control. Somewhere along the line someone decided that it is more efficient to use super magnets to replace the stator. The only trouble with that as I see it, is that to a large extent, the trade off was loss of control. I thought the rare earths used to make the magnets were largely located in the China region - research indicates that indeed, the materials are found all round the world. I don't think the low levels of radioactivity are so much a problem as the mining, extraction and disposal of waste. From what I can glean out of China is that significant amounts of farming/village land is being polluted by small lakes of the toxic waste. I think the extraction/refining process uses large quantities of concentrated sulphuric and hydrofluoric acid. Having worked in a paper pulp mill (as crew leader) I can imagine the fumes for a start. I wonder, in the name of "progress" there is a lot not being told (on both sides). I got a smile out of the Pubic Serpent. More like a dead lizard in my case? David M. |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
The closest you will get to a clear statement is in the Emissions reduction fund green paper page 40 section 4.6 Electricity Generation blah blah blah touchy-feely for 2 paragraphs then, The Government will review the Renewable Energy Target in 2014 to ensure it is operating efficiently and effectively. The review will be an open and transparent process and will consider the impact of the Renewable Energy Target on electricity prices and the needs and future of the Australian manufacturing sector. Given the significance of the electricity sector to Australia’s emissions profile and the upcoming review of the Renewable Energy Target in 2014, the Government will work closely with the sector on how the policy can best apply to its needs. My opinion is there will be lobbying for a reduction in electric generators requirements under the RET in return for active support and tendering for the governments reverse auction tender process "low cost" emissions reduction thingy. That's what the calls for the RET removal are about, the first shots in a negotiation. If the public don't react to these statements they will keep pushing for changes. the only reason this public consultation green paper is available is the legislation got knocked back on the first attempt in the senate and conditions were put on its reintroduction for attempt 2. Versions of the white paper are being written now. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
All summed up it seems that it is like pushing sh** up a waterfall with a pointed stick. the concept is practical from a personal point of view but the dice are loaded in favor of the big end of town no matter which way you look at it. All the lip service to a practical solution is merely obfuscation aimed at stopping innovation and development of means to slow pollution, but as I said before it will make no difference to world wide problems as commercial exploitation of people and emerging economies and in our own case handing the Vaseline to the commercial interests that manipulate government. All we can do is what we want to do and make the best of that. Simply making a business plan proving that it can be done and would be beneficial will never be enough to overcome the system. I will be gone as the way of life determines so no need for me to worry but for the masses ongoing survival in an increasing negate environment such as my grand and great grand children they will have to face the inaction and commercial ineptitude we are experiencing now squared or more in this century. Maybe they will mutate to breath smog and CO2, or after a mass extinction of plant animal and human life things will settle down again as been in the past. Thanks for the Job Norcold much appreciated, but I feel I am not politically correct enough to fit into the position, I would be more at home as a benevolent dictator with a big stick to herd the sheep. A 100 KW system is practical and good from a business sense, given a 50% feed in rate but it looks like not achievable under the present and it looks like the near future bumbling of pink red and white papers mascarading as green papers,so sad and as they say in the Classics BUGGER. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Your not wrong Bob, all loaded for the big end of town. Me thinks I`m not politically correct enough either, also I thought I was a realist but I don`t think I really know what a realist is. Perhaps one doesn`t exist. I also have the feeling the cure is going to prove to be much worse then the disease. Mad Max here we come.  We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
I think a realist is someone wise enough to know what should happen but equally wise to know that it won't. As for Mad Max, I have often wondered (and I'm sure it will) if we will end up in pollution controlled dome cities when anarchy rules the world. When "outside" is a world wide toxic mullock heap. Meanwhile, we in TBS keep doing what we do best and try and save a few shekels in the process. For as long as we live in a world run on economics, the ecology will take a back seat. Who was it that said "greed is good"? I thought it was one of the deadly sins! David M. |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
That definition of a realist is simply spot on in reality. I know I`m not there yet, will walk the barb wire fence with a leg on each side and see if in my little world I can change the won`t to something not so definite. Perhaps replace won`t with may not.
Just to clarify my comments about "the big end of town", I believe (maybe like to believe) it is driven by economy of scale not just greed. It would be a brave man who believes he has not or is not driven by some greed. That is probably built in all evolved animal species. Titbit for the day, local radio has a segment called this day in history. Today in 1770 is the day Capt. Cook first sighted OZ, the announcer added to this the comment, "lucky for us he wasn`t an illegal immigrant". We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
Isn't that self preservation? Or at least an innate desire to better one's lot in the process of evolution? Or our Cook would really have been goosed. (to plagiarise a mot) I suppose the size of local power distribution wires largely determine just how big a system you can connect to the local grid and if a significantly sized power generator is to be connected and upgrade of wires/switch gear is needed, it all comes back to economics and cost-benefit. David M. |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
I am not saying this will happen. I am saying if you believe that there is a future for solar farms then actively lobbying targeted individuals in the next 6 weeks to publicly give some assurance that the RET legislation will stay can only be a good thing for the renewable industry. This is one of those proverbial forks in the road where ear-chewin' some senators will make a difference. They don't happen very often. It does not matter what their response is, they remember unhappy punters on their doorstep asking tough questions and it makes them nervous. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Jarbar Senior Member  Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 224 |
Hi all,Solar Citizens has been doing targeted lobbying to help with keeping existing feed in tariffs and to keep the RET from being diluted.The link below will give more details about their strategies and anyone that wants to hop on board would be welcome. www.solarcitizens.org.au Anthony. "Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father "Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather. |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
"Australia is one of the sunniest continents on earth, so producing power from the sun just makes sense." In Finland we have only a fraction in the wintertime, but with hybrid system; http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5333&PN =1 Experiences about warming directly with PV panels; http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6020&PN =2 I read everything about solarcitizens and I must say we have nothing like this here in Finland. I will begin it here. Polarnightcitizens  Windcitizens..
With just.. solar power it would be so VERY easy 
You are SO..lucky ones 
Thank you Anthony ! Antero |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Antero It just shows the negative thinking here in Australia, so much natural energy going to waste and still dependent on old technology that's polluting the air. A few thousand 100 KW solar farm placements spread around the grid with custom made NIFE batteries as a backup and base load supplement with the potential for thousands more would go a long way toward providing energy for normal users such as small business and households with heavy industry installing gas powered plants for heavy industry. By spreading the farms far and wide would help reduce transmission losses over the long distances experienced in Australia. Wind is an added bonus in the south as in the north we get cyclonic winds for short periods but few sites with reliable winds. We have the potential we have the skills and initiative to get it all working but the government is tied to its regressive thinking and it's servitude to the existing systems. The biggest hurdle would starting an industry to make huge NIFE cells to provide a bit of base load and to even out the energy collection over cloudy days, where I live we have 300 days of full energy sunlight and the other 65 days average around 50% energy. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
To VK4AYQ, Bob; You must read more about this forum and so must everybody and discus. I too ! NICAD batteries they are just very antic batteries that I have. They are from an old ice braker ship and I rescued these batteries from landfill.. Working good, but they really are not a solution to anything ! Everyday is coming better news about all this and specially about energy storing, that is the ONLY barrier left.. any moore, to use 24/7 energy from sun and from wind. This is the future and developed in the Harvard University. (originally posted this knowledge from Midwoud1 in this forum); http://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2014/01/organic-mega-flow-b attery-promises-breakthrough-for-renewable-energy Everlasting chemical flow battery for energy storage. You can read everyday new huge steps about the development of all this. NOW WE REALLY HAVE the biggest competition in human history going on, in this matter now. WE have win win situation in this, but who really makes the killer application about this, they really will be rich as Microsoft.. So WINDOWS are really open for these windows.. Our generation have the duty to make pure and pollution free energy solutions for our our children and generations to come. Antero |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Antero These batteries have a lot of potential and in the future could be the answer to our storage problems but reading the site it will be a few years before they are in commercial production and to me they look high tech, the NIFE batteries are a proven concept now and old tech and nearly bullet proof and idiot proof the ones I hat years ago weighed nearly 3 tonnes and where one meter square by one point five meters high and seriesed with buss bars of copper 50 mm by 25 mm two per pole, the capacity I cannot remember anymore but it was thousands of amp hours I think, when I salvaged them they where over 50 years old but still charged up as good as new, my friend who had worked with them during the war showed me how to replace the electrolyte and they are probably still going. I wish I had gone to the trouble of keeping them when I shifted to Queensland. When the new flow battery is available it may replace them but for now I think they are the best simple way to store energy. We do not need to get rich and join the greed set we just need to make a living and improve the prospects for our descendants. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Rich ! The best richness is that we found solutions now, for our children and generations to come ! That is what I want to leave behind and it is better than anything you can think.. I have NICAD batteries, they are very poisonous etc and rescued them from landfill.. NIFE are developed By Edison and they are very good and nearly everlasting and I have wrote about them here in this story; http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5333&PN =1 After that there begin a new discussion about these Edison NIFE batteries, in this forum. Here you can found a lot of knowledge about them and discussion is going on here; http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5389&PN =1 Edison non poisonous are the best solution, so far, for home use. You can charge them with anyway and take energy to the knees. No harm done to the batteries and their capacity. NO battery in this world have performance even near like this.. and after decade(s)you just flow them with water and you use the battery fluid for fertilizer to your garden. New non poisonous battery fluids in and you have full capacity again. NO wonder, it is too good battery !! Edison in the year 1931; 
More knowledge you can also find; http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/ Antero |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
Looks like a great idea when fully developed and commercially available. Battery or super capacitor storage still has to be converted back to 3ph AC so it can be fed into the grid. As I see it (am I wrong?)there are two ways of conversion. One is to do it electronically e.g. BIG inverters and the other by electro-mechanical means e.g. rotary converters. Both have inherent problems in that they suffer significantly with efficiency. Electronic conversion is electrically "noisy". Radio reception (am/fm) in this house is almost impossible for that reason (thank you streaming online). Rotary inverters/converters are just plain inefficient but are electrically clean. We know that electronic conversion is feasible on a moderate scale as Bass Link DC transmission/conversion uses that method. In view of the multi megawatts of RE we are talking about, I have a hard time getting my head around the physical enormity of the storage and conversion system required. Just food for thought on the practically side. David M. |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
We need "greed" in this, but the situation is win win in this matter. So called "big boys"(before these big boys made fortunes about ?..etc) are on the move, to get this done. BIG money. ALL they know, that this is the beginning of new energy change.. Perhaps.. they have children, too ? Antero |
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