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Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 12:47am 23 Feb 2012
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O.k
There's a 6v 600ma & 12v 210ma. Pumps running 6v seem to be more expensive breifly looking at prices.Edited by Lapsy 2012-02-24This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
larny Guru Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 346
Posted: 09:10am 24 Feb 2012
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That's interesting, I have been assuming that the pumps were much more powerful & therefore would draw more current.
The Silicon Chip timer will handle up to 10 Amp, so these curents are miniscule.
If I were you, I'd use the 12 Volt one.
However, is there a spec sheet that gives the starting current?
I doubt if it would exceed 10 Amp, but I would like to be sure.
Len
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 12:47am 25 Feb 2012
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I will enquire about a few different types and see who knows.
Yeah, not after high pressure force. Just need to fill a container/pipe in an allocated amount of time E.g. I work out it is say.... 5min to fill the pipe, just before it overfows or spills out. The timer stops the water pump. As it fills I can just have a small outlet slowly draining it, but not enough to freeflow. Needs to be less exiting than entering. Attached to this will be a plastic filter (in line) and following that, a tap or flow regulator so I can slow down the drainage on return to the pond.
This can assist in adjusting the timer period in rounding the time schedule off to 1min increments. E.g you find the pipe fills with water to maximum capacity in 4min 45 seconds. Timer will only set for 4 or 5 minutes. So by opening the tap slightly you would allow slightly more runout for that flooding to have to take 5min to fill. It's manual tweeking but a cheap way out. There may be a perfect volume to maximize this E.g only have max 3metre lengths instead of 6metre. Trouble is the pipes are sold in 6metre lengths, every time you cut it the price goes up on the project as you need to end cap it. So bulking it this way is just no mucking around.
Put it this way, I figure to eat for free, my theory Im working on is..... 365 days in a year. If you eat lettuce every second day and you had a plant for each day, then plant about 180-200 lettuce over the year. 100mm pipe at 6metres for $25 would easy space 20 to 30 cos lettuce depending how big you want them.
I wouldn't use 100mm for tomatos as they need more room but could use this to get 20-25 up and ready to replant. Could probably do 15-20 basil as they need a bit of space between them. Have thought about strawberrys also...
Also, fish eat lettuce so you cut costs on fish food giving them leftovers.This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 07:27am 25 Feb 2012
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Anyways....
How's this sound for specs on this other pump
1.2A@6v and 2.5A@12v
Still not enough info by the looks of it.
Maybe I should just purchase one and find out if the sellers have no specs. Guess that's one way of finding out...
Edited by Lapsy 2012-02-26This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
larny Guru Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 346
Posted: 09:37pm 25 Feb 2012
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These are much more powerful than the previous which you said was:-
6v 600ma which means 3.6 Watt & 12v 210ma meaning 2.5 Watt.
1.2A@6v => 7.2 Watt and 2.5A@12v => 30 Watt.
However, we still need to know the starting current. I explained in a previous post how you can measure the resistance which would then allow me to calculate the starting current. But the catch is that you may have to buy one first.
Anyway, you could ask the seller if you could measure the motor resistance before you buy.Edited by larny 2012-02-27
larny Guru Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 346
Posted: 09:50pm 25 Feb 2012
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In regard to your previous post where you wrote:-
"There may be a perfect volume to maximize this E.g only have max 3metre lengths instead of 6metre. Trouble is the pipes are sold in 6metre lengths, every time you cut it the price goes up on the project as you need to end cap it"
I don't fully understand what you're trying to do, so this idea may be nonsense, but here goes.
Perhaps you could make some cheap tanks to store the volume that you need so you don't have to cut the tube into odd lengths.
The tanks could be made from items such as:-
Soft drink bottles, odds & ends of plumbing pipe, zincalumn (I'm not sure about the spelling) downpipe, etc. that you may have on hand or can obtain for nothing (eg. from a building site, the builder would probably be happy for you to take off cuts from his skip).
Then the only cost would be for a tube of silicone to seal the joins.
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 10:19pm 26 Feb 2012
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3 Examples and ideas sort of mashed together here...
Please excuse sketchy sketch and oldschool paper torn off...
And to save mega posts and questions T.P stands for Timer Pump!
A. is using a water valve on a timer. Solar pump on its own circuit fills a tank which gets to a level and cascades out into fish pond to aerate the water. Valve is situated lower than this and opens on the timer into another tank of veggies. It then floods to a point. valve shuts or runs out of water. Veg tank slow drains back to fish. Advantage of the valve is it can run dry with no damage as it just stays open. No power to the valve & its closed. Issue is the tank the plants are in. If you expand on it, you may need to expand the water tank (With the valve on also) or hope its a sunny day so the solar pump keeps transfering water.
B. is a gravity pipe version. Pump pumps water up to top pipe vetically. Gravity carries water back to pond via each pipe by falling. Not what I want to do but idea for piping came from that. Usually people push a constant flow of water through this, slow pumping all the time. This will drain the battery in this design. Not good!
C. Simmilar to B but instead of stacking upwards the pipes are level next to each other horizontally. Although the pipes flood simmilar to A.'s plant bed. Slow return to the pond held up by an irrigation tap. I think...1 pump per pipe... as manifolding equal amounts to each pipe may be an issue to regulate.
Long as its the same pump for each pipe I think its safe so say they would pump approximatly the same volume (in theory). Pumps activated by timer. Could probably still have a solar pump on seperate circuit to run water filter/aerate water on the fall also.
SO... A or C I think so far. none of this is the actual idea I will go with but this is as close as it gets as a current idea.
Cheers!Edited by Lapsy 2012-02-28This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
larny Guru Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 346
Posted: 04:55am 27 Feb 2012
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Your pictures are worth 1000 words. Now I see what you're doing.
Here is a thought.
You said a manifold would not be any good as the flow in each pipe may not be equal.
If you had a trough as drawn, the head for each pipe would be equal, so the flows should be about equal.
However, I don't know how high the trough would have to be above the vegies to provide enough head.
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 12:25pm 28 Feb 2012
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Yep, your onto it!
That drawing is simmilar to my A. Diagram ( if you call it a diagram!)
Either a pump or valve would work in this situation.
Thought about a trough, definatly would have to be spirit level straight to equaly distribute evenly. All holes would need to be drilled level also. Tricky but do-able. Valve could just dump into the trough and solar pump just fills a vat behind it.
Also like the idea of a ball valve but maybe not needed. Thought also a ball valve could replace the timer if somehow triggered at the right time. Not looked into at all though... might end up more expensive, but really unsure on that one. I need to research what's available.
Instead of pipe I did think to use the secondary pond dish usually used as a waterfall, as the actual veggie tray. Trouble is expanding on it. Much easier to add another line rather than adjusting half the setup to cater for it. Then again, I could drill and add plumbing to it, but it probably passes the point of no return as part of the pond then. I feel there's no need to make more work, just keeping it simple is the go.
Also forgot to mention this will be overseen by an eldery person. So keeping it light-ish to manuver if required is good, and easy troubleshooting and maintenance is a bonus also.
The country area it's going to be situated in is far from great. I walked in the local hardware store and prices were ridiculous as they know its at least 50km or more to drive to an alternate store.
I remember buying a brass gas bottle fitting for $3 in town. I needed another for convenience in the country and these bandits attempted to slug me $18 for the same piece of brass! I laughed and walked out. But felt very sorry for those forced to pay top dollar such a pensioners who maybe cannot drive or whatever. Those people are doing it hard and often have no other option. Disgusts me even thinking about it while typing this! I counter acted it by throwing a computer in the mix gave an introducing to ebay! Now were onto aquaponics! Elderly move slow but the brains well ahead! I'm just happy to helpout sourcing parts and lift the heavy stuff to get things going.
Appreciate everyones help here, top notch! It will take some time to finish but better to plan it properly in the first place!
Edited by Lapsy 2012-02-29This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
larny Guru Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 346
Posted: 09:39pm 28 Feb 2012
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When I said "Float Switch" I meant an electrical float switch not a toilet cystern type Float Valve.
See the attachment below for an variant of what I posted last time.
This idea provides more head than the previous.
I don't know how much head you will need, you will have to experiment.
I'll post another variant later in the day. I have other things to do ATM.
Len
larny Guru Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 346
Posted: 10:04pm 29 Feb 2012
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Here is the promised next suggestion.
It is a variant on the previous.
Note that the relay & diode may be the ones in the Timer, it depends on the starting current of the pump motor.
The point of the Float Switch is to turn the pump on when the water level in the column drops & to switch it off when the level reaches the limit.
Alternatively, you could simply have an overflow that goes back to the pond so the pump runs continuously while the relay is operated by the Timer.
JayCar sell a suitable Float Switch.
However, they may be available from irrigation parts suppliers.
Len
Edited by larny 2012-03-02
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 02:46pm 01 Mar 2012
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Brilliant!
Will look into this also...
No problems if busy, understood totally. Lately my time is occupied. Just logged in for a quick look to see how things are progressing with this thread. Looking great. I shall ponder for a bit in meantime and suss this out.
Back later!
P.S Tinker! obtained a step up circuit Today. Yet to test...
Cheers all!
This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
larny Guru Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 346
Posted: 08:48pm 01 Mar 2012
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You're welcome.
In case you are not aware of the Physics of water pressure -
Note that the water pressure in the manifold is purely due to the "head", ie. how high the surface of the water in the column is above the manifold.
The volumne of water in the column is not relevant.
However, the volume is obviously important since it determines how often the pump has to run in order to maintain the head.
For example, with a thin column, the pump may have to run for say 45 seconds every 76 seconds, but for a wider (ie. same height, more volumn) column, it may be say 26 seconds every 108 seconds.
Len
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 09:56am 02 Mar 2012
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Yeah.... I have read that.
The 12v gravity valve had a particular height it would only go to.
I thought though..... And this is extreme as I doubt this would work due to the weight but....
If a valve is rated to say 3 meters I wonder if you could have a field or swimming pool full of water at say 2.5 Meters heigh in water would the valve still work? Im unsure and not looked into this. Weird how physics works with water? This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
larny Guru Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 346
Posted: 08:24pm 02 Mar 2012
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I'm not too sure what you're asking.
I assume if the valve is rated at 3 metre, then that means it will only work for a head of 3 metre or less.
Therefore, if the swimming pool was 2.5 metre deep, then it would work at any depth in the pool.
larny Guru Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 346
Posted: 10:09pm 02 Mar 2012
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This should help you to visualise the “head” of water and its relationship to the water pressure.
The diagram shows a 100 litre tank connected via a tube to a 10,000 litre tank.
Obviously, when water is poured into one tank or the other, water will flow through the tube until the levels are equal.
At this point the head of Ts is equal to the head of Tb, i.e. Hs = Hb.
Therefore the pressures are equal and opposite, i.e. Ps = Pb. Thus there is no flow in the tube.
Now suppose someone pours 50 litre of water into Ts quickly.
Initially, the level in Ts will be higher than that in Tb, so Ps > Pb.
Therefore water will flow from Ts to Tb until the levels are again equal.
Len
Edited by larny 2012-03-04
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 01:01am 04 Mar 2012
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Yep I get ya!
Funny this... as bricklayers have been known to use a clear plastic pipe and water as a level. Water always levels out even. Usually used to check the corner heights of houses to make sure each corner is level. Cheers also for the header info. Something to definatly consider taking into account on this design.
Also got a slight mod update... got round to soldering a AA battery clip into the timer.
LCD is lit and functioning unfaded, so plenty of juice there. Plugged into mains, AA seems to be charging nicely, batterys not feeling warm so seems steady.
In the pic you can see the old coin cell I took out. I had that charging overnight but woke to no LCD display so thats over with. AA is Nicad which was the original type in the timer. The replacement coin battery shown was obtained from Battery World. The NiMh and was nowhere near as good as the original, they charged me something like $8 many years back, and were the only people I could find to supply a replacement. See how this runs in meantime for timer recovery.
Mucked around testing a step up, one I have seems best only kicking out 28 or 32V on the dial adjustment. Will update again shortly.This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
larny Guru Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 346
Posted: 03:06am 04 Mar 2012
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I presume the reason that the NiMh battery did not work well is because they need a different charger to NiCADs.
As you probably know, the disadvantage with NiCADs is they have "memory" so they need to go through full charge/dicharge cycles.
Len
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 10:21am 04 Mar 2012
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Yep, I think it may have done the job but I think the Milliamp hour rating was weak compared to the stock battery. Seemed to hold up if used on an appliance that was on most of the time or 50/50. Anything less and I notice it becomes inactive and you would have to leave it on again full time just to give it a decent charge to hold the time in it's later days. Fish tank after a few weeks would not turn on as scheduled. The timer just drops out.
Anyways... see how this goes... could have used 1 X AAA and maybe get it all back inside the case but that would have been a squeeze. I think from memory the mAhr is not as good as a AA so.... ah well done already.
Will see how the battery holds up over the next few days & proceed from there. Was near flat when inserted. Had a faded LCD display but been on for a few hours running on mains, turned it off and its looking sweet so far. Interested to see how long it can last without power running through. Battery is old but never got used much. Bought in a pair. Lost one of them, might have got thrown by accident or lost at some stage. Thought to keep it as I would find a use for it one day! There is it!
Probably about 5 years old but only had about 10 charges in its lifetime. About 6 months ago a friend charged it in a charger that handled batts individually and it got the all clear as still useable, no damage to the cell. Now back in use. This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 10:59pm 06 Mar 2012
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Ok!
Another quick update... Been thinking about the float method & I have a design that seems simpler than my last few designs. I will do another masterpiece drawing to gawk at in awe in the next few days. I think the float is the way to go for cost!
The jaycar float switch is $20. Have researched online and found a place in asia that sells a mini version of these (or it could be the same one...?) for about $3.50 delivered! Might order 1 or 2 to check the quality.
So currently the price I have got this down to for main parts/spares is looking like $3.50 for the float switch, and about $8 for a 12v pump (which would kick in off the float, pumps cheaper than a gravity valve). Looking alright there for the price! Shaved some $$$ off the cost for sure this way if all goes to plan. I will check it out a little more over the next few days. I want to recommend the company who sells the cheap float switches, but wait till I have ordered & if the quality is decent I shall recommend on here for all. We all know what ordering from China can be like! Bit hit and miss at best. This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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