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Forum Index : Solar : New Feed in tariff rate
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Madness Guru  Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
You can be sure the bills will going up too. With second-hand panels, building your own inverter and charge controller, the biggest expense will be the batteries. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
The problem I have with thinking about the big picture on electricity is that the numbers dont add up. for example 28.8% of SA dwellings have rooftop solar with a total installed capacity of 640 MW If I look at what is happening today in SA, its a cloudy day and I have looked at the live stats for around 11.00am. total generation at the moment is 1950 MW total consumption is 1400 MW (so the state is exporting 550 MW) solar generation is 380MW  total number of dwellings 673,500 dwellings with solar 194,000 This means the average size of household solar systems is 3.3kw. So here is where it gets a bit weird, I have been told that household consumption as a percentage of the total of electricity used is between 18%-21% If that is true then for roughly 6 hours the solar panels in South Australia are producing more energy than the entire private sector is consuming, and then some more! The average solar household is self consuming less than 400 watts and exporting 1600 watts. Given that this solar generation happens through the peak period of the day I fail to see how households are any major burden on the electricity network. I hear media pundits getting lathered up about air conditioners and possible blackouts and how households have to do the right thing in summer. I am getting sick of residential customers carrying the can for all the networks woes. We have had BHP Billiton bleating about how they deserve special treatment because they are the biggest customer (more than 200 MW) Last December AEMO requested they cut their usage by 40% for 3 hours for the first time that I can remember to stabilize the network (this is in their contract) after this they went on a media bender claiming Olympic dam had been blacked out for four hours and heads should roll in the state Govt and compensation should be paid. Not only are they too stupid to realize they would be caught out telling porkies, they have failed to grasp the basic fact that the electricity market is controlled and operated NATIONALLY and the sole responsibility is the federal government's. I question exactly what debt of gratitude you owe a smelter or casino? My attitude is if they want a new power station they should stump up the money and finance it and we will take their surplus at the same price they would have paid us. I also question why someone with a perfectly good grid connection needs to spend ten grand on batteries? I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Big companies are big squeaky wheels that pay little tax and have the clout to influence the government. Not just the current government either, we were told privatization of energy retailers would mean cheaper power bills, that was a lie. As battery systems become more common how long will it be before you get charged for having the grid past your door whether you use it or not? Hopefully, the grid will never come past my next home, don't want it and don't need it. DIY power is much reliable anyway. I saw a documentary a little while ago now done by Dick Smith about Nuclear Power, what was said made a lot of sense and that is a lot safer than the general perception. It is a long way off happening here as it would not go down well politically, any party suggesting it would get punished. The big Solar Battery farm proposed for near Gympie has had a lot of interest from investors wanting to invest in green projects. Perhaps this the way of the future in spite of what the current government thinks. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
yahoo2, would you mind if I copied that post and sent it to a friend? It should be (IMHO) published on the front page of every newspaper, the bloomin out and out LIES told by the current governments (both state and federal) and the `coal is great supporters' literally makes me sick |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
 This graph shows the best system I can build, operated to perfection, the front row is what it costs in CASH, the back row is TOTAL COST of OWNERSHIP, finance, tax, everything. So any off-grid solar system (red) not hitting the sweet spot will cost more than 24 cents/kwh. The ongrid solar with diversion loads (light blue) can achieve under 16 cents at a range of installed solar capacities. The average person buying new off the shelf (not custom build) can add up to 10 cents to my on-grid battery and off-grid prices. I wrote that last post this morning and made sure my sources were good, and when I switched the radio on tonight all hell had broken loose, with personal threats against AGL from the govt, I kinda wish I had put it on a blog rather than here now. Supporting Liddel power station will destroy the financial incentives for installing new generation, I have read the AEMO report, it basically says that nothing needs to be done, as NSW will have four times the power it needs to replace Liddel installed by 2022. The point I am trying to make is no homeowner should feel guilty about not pulling their weight or shamed into saving electricity for dubious reasons. We shouldn't feel forced to install expensive battery systems for the good of the country or to protect ourselves from very unlikely power cuts. No-one should bear capital costs that are unnecessary. We have done enough, and the numbers bear that out, Australia's households generate more electricity than they use when it really matters I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| pancho 43 Newbie  Joined: 23/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1 |
I live near the Qld border (Brunswick Heads) and have two solar systems both 5.4KW. The first was installed Dec 24 2010 at a cost of almost 24K. It has 24 225 watt Mitsubishi panels with 5KW SMA inverter. It has now produced almost 54,000 KWH and paid itself off in the first four years. The second system was fitted 23rd Nov last year and has so far produced over 6,400 KWH. It has 20 270 watt Jinco panels and 5 KW Growatt inverter. This system was $6,100 with 3 phase smart meter. I installed the second system in preparation for going completely off-grid, thinking that I would have plenty of charging for those dull short winter days when it's raining. Since Enova started up and paying the (previously) 12c FIT I changed from powershop to them and I've only had one bill from them. That was while it was only on the 12c FIT and to my surprise My bill was to the credit of $334.00. I'm now looking forward to the next one to see how I go now I'm getting the 16c FIT. I have a Granny-flat attached to my house and recently had the meters removed to alleviate the extra service availability charges.  I told the Tenant that if he continues to be careful with his consumtion I will not be giving him a bill, so he's saving all the way around.  And so am I with the FIT and plenty of panels it looks at present as if things go as they are, I will not have to go to the expense of needing batteries and their replacement costs. The total average usage (after meter) has so far been around 6KWH/day for both households with solar hot water and the pool-pump etc. on timers for strong daylight use only. Happy chappie whose not had to pay for power since Dec 2010 admittedly at some expense. Cheers, Pete. |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Welcome Pete, that's what we like to hear! Rooftop solar working as it is supposed to. Further to my post about how much solar is actually being produced. Audrey Zibelman (AEMO head honcho) and quite a few commentators have pointed out the same thing.  S.A. grid demand plunges to record low as rooftop solar share hits 48% The interesting think about this graph is that the interconnector had a little hissy fit early in the morning and the price of electricity went negative (black line). So in theory you could be paid $44/MWh to use or store electricity, provided you could participate in the wholesale market. This is one of the reasons I am keen to see brokers services happening so that small players can get a slice of this. Over that 40 minutes I would have been paid 50 cents to receive 12 kwh. That brings up the point of how pivotal that interconnector links are at the moment with no energy storage in the mix, today every state was exporting electricity that ultimately ended up in NSW. I do worry that new generators are accepting 20 year fixed price contracts to get their finance rather than being fully funded and participating more in the market. I think that loss of marketing flexibility will mean opportunities to take advantage of fluctuating prices may be left to only a few entities.  I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Roof top solar exceeding demand, the sky will fall down! There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Alastair Senior Member  Joined: 03/04/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 161 |
Like most people I have recently been getting a few unsolicited phone calls offering me 'great deals' to change my energy provider. When I ask if they will give me better then half of the rate I pay for import power for my excess solar they quickly disappear. I currently get 9c / KwH for my excess. I pay ~27c for most of my import. My meter shows that since we moved into our new house the 5Kw panels have generated 50% more than we have used. I think battery storage systems have now dropped ($) to the point I will start looking. A 10KwH system will comfortably handle all our needs except when we need to run the big 3-phase a/c. Since we live near the ocean it is more when it is warm and humid rather than hot. I was surprised when the electrician told me that 5Kw was the maximum panels we could install. I gather this is due to the risk of driving up the local grid voltage if too much solar capacity is installed. Definitely sounds like the grid control systems were not designed to handle local generation. We are still in the old times in many ways. We have spent a fortune on new poles and wires which has been the major factor driving up prices. We now need to update to take advantage of the abundant opportunity for renewables in this country (Aus). With our polies back in the coal era I won't hold my breath. Cheers, Alastair |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Is that maximum of 5KW of panels or the inverter? You should be able to have 6KW plus of panels so long as you can't export more than 5KW. If you have enough thermal mass in your home you could cool it more off solar during the day and still be cooler at night with the AC off. Have you tried running the AC on dehumidifying? Like yourself, I live not far from the coast and our maximum temperatures are not that high but combined with the humidity 32 degrees feels really hot. The politicians are pushing coal because of who pulls the liberal party strings, power companies are not interested in building coal-fired power stations. Around the world, there are examples everywhere of renewable energy being installed because it makes financial sense. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Alastair Senior Member Joined: 03/04/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 161 |
5Kw of panels - the installer was happy to slip a few more on if I wanted. What we have is enough if we now put batteries in. I am not paranoid about only using solar power. If it is hot i am happy to pay the power bill. In reality in the near 1 year we have been in the new house we have used the a/c more for heating when the cold southerlies blow. We now have a wood pile so can use the combustion stove. We use the big electric appliances - dishwasher, washing m/c etc, during the day when solar is good. The evacuated tube h/w system is great and I now have sensors on most parts so I can see what is happening. For winter we need more tubes, in summer we have more than enough. I estimate we spent ~$100 during the cool months for the electric booster when we had visitors. Again I think once the batteries are in we will make better use of the excess power and I won't expand the solar h/w. I went to great effort to get the house well insulated and nagged the installers when I could see a gap they had not filled. They thought I was mad when I insulated the brick garage walls on the bottom level even after I pointed out that it was underneath the main living area which is on the upper floor. Had I not persisted I doubt it would have been done the way I wanted. The foreman got thoroughly sick of me but I pointed out that I paid the bills and would get what I wanted or find another builder. I am sure many houses are not as well insulated as claimed. re the a/c - we rarely have the a/c on during the night and do as you suggest, turn it on during the day and use the thermal inertia by keeping the house closed up at night. At least with our net meter this cancels out some of the expensive electricity. Fortunately we can afford to be comfortable. Cheers, Alastair |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
I had planned to do a feature on Peer to peer energy trading and how blockchain technology would make it possible to sell electricity directly to your neighbours. However, the National Energy Guarantee has just been announced and I am honestly struggling to find enough detail to make any real meaningful sense of the implications. It looks like the renewable energy certificates scheme will not be enforced from 2020, that would in theory make the large generation certificates worthless. Both in $ value and as a tool to motivate retailers to support the building of new cleaner electricity generation. The small scale technology certificate (STC) that we commonly call rooftop solar rebate feeds into this scheme and is aggregated by brokers and bundled into large generation certificates to be sold. I am guessing that means it will be curtains for the STC. Instead of winding down slowly by 2032 it looks like the certificates will be at $0.00 before 2020 if the NEG goes ahead. STC's as of today for 14 years on a 5kw system in zone 3 would be 96 certificates by $36 totaling $3456 Three and a half grand is a big dent in the upfront cost of grid connected clean energy council approved rooftop solar. The govt has gone to great lengths to spell out that this scheme IS NOT A REBATE but an industry funded mechanism, I cant see them funding the shortfall from 2020 to 2032 out of general revenue since there has been one attempt to axe the scheme already. More troubling is this new idea of physical contracts for emissions and dispatch-ability and no financial penalty for falling short of emission targets. Rather than the existing financial mechanism that doesn't discriminate between companies and concentrates on the overall results. The Idea that a big retailer would voluntarily purchase emission credits when they have no enforceable legal obligation to do so seems just farcical. I have visions of smaller brokers being shut out of the retail market completely through bureaucratic red tape if a centralised body has the last word on who trades and who doesn't. If consumers get locked out of accessing the spot price for electricity it will be a disaster for the grid and a total bonanza for battery suppliers. I guess I will have to nervously sit on my hands for a couple of weeks and see what happens with the COAG meeting. I really dont know where this is going. I wish there was some good news but to be honest, things look pretty bleak. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
What an appropriate name "NEG" and is that the COAG or COAL meeting? There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| tytower Newbie Joined: 19/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 21 |
https://www.facebook.com/Lets-Get-Ergon-Back-to-Reality-1056655481100296/?ref=bookmarks About second post down ! Add to that that up here if you are on a pension rebate you dont get the hot water rate any more! |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
The do gooders and those with a tall moral high horse will probably get all upset but I got 5.5 kw of used panels up on the shed roof today and all wired up. I am back feeding into the mains which spins my analogue meters backward and effectively gives me a 1:1 feed in tariff. It is maniacal and insulting that you should be charged 30C for the power you use but only .6C here for the power you put back which they can sell to the guy next door for 500% profit. I'm happy to take my chances with getting caught but having consulted 2 legal mates separately and independently, they are both of the opinion that I'd most likely get a slap on the wrist and made to remove my bootleg system and that would be it. In any case, I think the chances of getting caught are very slim. I have been testing and learning with the panels on the back lawn for the last 8 weeks or so and managed to halve our bill even though the system was Hobbled to about 3.5 Kw due to small inverters and not running all the time. Now I have a 5Kw inverter, I plan to reduce the bill to a couple of hundred dollars. Half will be the "supply charge" ( to keep all those gold plated power poles and wires shiny and replaced every 2 years) and the rest in power to keep them happy and have the benefits of being on grid. I'm told that there is a plan in NSW to replace all analogue meters within 4 years so my scheme may be short lived but I'll make the most of it for as long as I can. If I get a smartarse meter I'll look at the devices which match self generated consumption with demand and also at battery power. Whole system has probably cost me under $1200 to set up with used panels and inverter. I may have to spend a bit more as it seems there is a problem with the garage wiring somewhere and although it has 2.5mm mains, i'm having trouble getting more than about 2700W back down the line before the voltage goes high. Sparky mate was here today and we found where the power goes from the house to the shed and I'm going to look at running 3 phase up there with 4MM cable. He says it won't be difficult to do as the conduit will take it and everything is pretty accessible. Another $500 even for cable and to run a sub board up there will be money well invested IMHO especially if I am saving around $4000 Pa. We are going to look at the present setup to see if there is a bad connection or someone has skimped and just run 1.5mm wire from the board to the underground connection. For the moment just means I can only run the system at a bit over half capacity. Reading things with the way the power industry is going, I'm looking to do another setup the same. Like another poster, the aim is to work up to being able to be self sufficient when and if I need. I'm not sure batteries will become cheaper, I tend to think the opposite in fact and what I would look at is the plain old Lead acids as in forklift packs. I'd like to have enough generation so all daytime loads were supplied by the panels virtually direct through an inverter and the battery capacity wasn't even touched. For the cost of the forklift packs, I believe one could have an over capacity therefore reducing DOD and extending the life time. I already have a number of diesel engines I run on veg oil so having to fire up a Genny to charge the batteries on overcast days wouldn't be a problem either. I'd look at setting up a controller that cut in automatically if the pack fell under a certain ( reasonably high) charge level. Everyone here has high power bills ( $1200-1500 per quarter) due to the area and having to run pumps 24/7 for sewerage and the rather extended climate being 40O regularly in summer and many nights in winter being zero or below. Also no natural gas here so most homes are all electric. I see nothing wrong with minimising my bills without stealing or putting anyone else on the grid at risk. While this approach is not without it's legal) risks, I'm happy to take the chance and have a bit of self sufficiency and independence. Mostly, I'm happy to thumb my nose at the gubbermint and big business that has been flucking everyone over for so long and screwing them over with all the insulting crap and mismanagement we have had to suffer. It's only going to get worse and I don't think ever better. |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I thought it's been getting hot here but you win. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
With weather that goes over 40o, I hardly think I'm winning! :0) At least the nights cool off, quite dramatically. Not unusual to go from over 40 to 25 or below. I can see AC over the summer being the biggest power consumer. i'm making progress on the power bill right up till the time I hit the ducted then the meter starts spinning the wrong way at a rapid rate. I believe 10 Kw of panels on the roof will offset that quite nicely. |
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| noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 513 |
Lol... so had to contact ergon yesterday. .. now they spinning off that the people you talk to are locals... lol , not someone in sydney or india... Maybe to make people feel bad to front up paying there exotic prices. cause you know, support a local and all that.. in the last 12 months, its gone from .23cents/kw to now .28cents/kw... and we are coming into summer here, so aircons are being used heaps... Kaching...!!! I think it works !! |
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