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Forum Index : Other Stuff : NSW poles & wires
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Tinker Guru  Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Thanks Glenn & Bob, lots of very useful information. My small (1.8KW) Latronics inverter needs to be upsized before I can hook up bigger power loads. Have to check the price on the bigger units. I have 2KW of solar feeding 200Ah of LIPO battery (24V system) with another 400Ah of LA batteries as a backup. The LIPO have so far managed to cope with my loads very well. I have a gas (towngas) cook top and gas heating & hot water but with gas prices going up and it being a non renewable source, going all electric looks the way to go for me. Klaus |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
How much would this cost? Understand price includes BMS George |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
I am thinking very seriously about LIPO myself right now, and in VERY ROUGH round figures a 200AH cell might currently cost about $300 each, eight cells perhaps $2,400. That would be 4.8 KWH theoretical stored energy at 50 cents per KWH bare battery cost. The figures are a bit rubbery, but fairly close. That is just for the bare LIPO cells and nothing else. BMS, data logging, and controllers come on top of that. There are so many alternatives possible here, the cost can vary a lot. Cheers, Tony. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All I think that the comparison in AH from Lipo to lead acid is a bit confusing because a LIPO battery from what I have read is happy to go to 80% discharge whereas a lead acid bank is in real terms to 40% if you expect to get the life quoted by the makers, so in effect the LIPO has double the rate of discharge without damage making a 250 AH LIPO equivalent to a 500 AH lead acid battery, which makes the cost comparison more equal across the board. My only concern is the service life of a LIPO as to my way of thinking has not been proven in a solar battery configuration, I know people who have a serious reliability issue with LIPO in traction conditions but I do not think that would transfer to a solar configuration which is much less severe. While some of the better quality Lead acid batteries quote a life of 15 years but that is only at a 25% discharge rate making a 250 AH battery in effect a 60 AH battery. In my experience the only cells that reached a long life 20 years plus, with the normal abuses was the old glass case cells setup on the older 32 volt systems, but these cells are no longer available to the public at reasonable prices. So it looks like the LIPO cells are going to be a suck it and see situation, at the moment the oldest set I know of are just over 2 years old and still performing at full capacity, so time will tell, anyone that has an experience with LIPO cell lasting longer I would like to hear from. I agree with tinker on the use of full electric house as the cost of LP gas has risen dramatically in my area to over $2 a liter not to mention pick up or delivery charges. A bit extra in the system design I feel could compensate for the use of electric cooking and while the savings are small they are ongoing and increasing with time, new tech developments in cooking make the proposition more feasible. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hey Bob, have you looked at using your own gas bottles? I use a 9kg and a 4.5kg bottle, I own the bottles, and just swap and refill them as needed. It means I need to keep an eye on how much is left in the bottle, and throw an empty in the car next time I'm heading into town, but it also means no one has to visit my place to top up the bottles, so I dont need to worry about a gas truck getting bogged in the yard. I suspect using my own bottles like this may be cheaper, havn't run the numbers. Just for cooking, the 4.5kg lasted months and months. At the moment my solar hot water system is in pieces in the shed, as the house is going through its final certification inspections and the solar hot water system would not have passed, so I'm currently on gas hot water only. So with gas cooking and hot water, the 4.5kg lasts almost 2 weeks, the 9kg almost a month. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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BobD Guru Joined: 07/12/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 935 |
If you use your own 9kg gas bottles and you have a Bunnings nearby you can do a swap and go for about $20. Something to note is that they don't care how old your cylinder is. They will swap any cylinder size for size. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Glenn I do use the the small bottles as getting the big bottles was a cost disaster, cylinder rental delivery costs made the gas nearly $3 a litre to get the small bottles filled has been the cheaper option but that has gone from $24 to $28 a bottle over the last 6 months to get it cheaper I would have to go to bunnings, but that is a 150 KLM trip the only way to get it cheaper is to use autogas but it burns a bit smokey, must be a lower grade of gas, even so it costs near 80 cents ltr and have to run the gauntlet at the servo to get my tanks filled (fork lift tanks) One small tank lasts about 3 months on the gas stove so it is reasonably cost effective, but if I take away the induction cooker I would use nearly twice as much gas. The Induction cooker is a 1800 watt unit but I only use the 300 600 and 800 watt settings or it will burn the bottom out of the saucepan. To cook porridge for three I use 10 min at 600 watts and 10 min at 300 watts, total usage in watts 150 watts, plus a bit for system losses. To cook a fry pan of chicken 30 min at 600 watts or 300 watts, plus system losses. Converting into Grid costs it is about 20 cents so is cheap enough, but if you have the power available from the batteries well that's another story and makes the solar set up more useful in the overall scheme of things. Converting into gas costs it is as cheep as chips but you are still not independent. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Economy of scale. I did see a off grid system several months ago, on a rural property. Two houses shared the same resource, a farm shed, guessing 12m X 12m, covered in solar panels, and a 20foot shipping container used as the battery room. Both houses had central air conditioning, used electricity for cooking, and had power to spare. I guess by combining resources and funds, they could afford a over the top system and now dont have any power concerns. I think its time for off grid systems to be a consideration for anyone building a new home, or added to the cost of buying a 2nd hand home. A system with power to spare could cost $40k, but added to the price of a $400k house, its not much, and means no power bills, other than battery replacement every 10 years or so. The extra mortgage would be less than the cost of batteries, and far less than grid power. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Glenn When you consider a light usage of around 20 KW a day including gst and service charge you are looking at at least $2500 a year it wouldn't take long to lay for a system at all. A good set of batteries $10000 Inverters:- $ 2500 5 KW panels:-$5000 =25KW a day Wiring and regulators:- $25 Around $10,000 for a single house My friend had a quote from energex of $38,000 just to get power line to his house, one pole only, so on that basis he would be $28,000 better off. And all paid for in four years assuming no price increases (dream dream) At the moment he is running a 8 KVA generator for peak loads and charging his night batteries at <4 liters of diesel a day, a couple of panels and four old machine batteries we resurrected with the desulphator, an old inverter from Gumtree and his daily cost is less than $5 a day. If you take the service charges and GST Another$650 a year it certainly would cover maintenance and upgrading the system over time. The big problem is lack of available funds on the day to get it going but as Glenn suggested it would be worthwhile on a new build or a renovation to include this unit in the overall cost as the money it saves would pay down the extra loan in a few years. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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