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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Renewable Solar and Wind Energy Transform
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi I remember the gas producers after the war making gas to feed the supply in Sydney, it smelled terrible. I think that all these changes of state and processes are a waste of energy, not to mention dangerous, there is always a risk of explosion and it would be a target for some idiot terrorist as well. If the amount of co2 is left to be dealt with by natural processes the balance in the atmosphere will be re established quicker by natural processes than by idiot men trying to interfere, the aim is to make processes to store and collect energy to do away with the production of dangerous gases. We need to work on simple energy efficient processes to store excess energy for release at peak times. less than 10 % of the area of Australia would supply the world with solar energy at todays levels 1000 watt sq mtr based on 6 hours a day collection. Wind energy and solar would combine to supply a pool storage system in the main population centers adding to local input. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
[Quote=VK4AYQ] We need to work on simple energy efficient processes to store excess energy for release at peak times. Oh, yeah; remember that bloke that used to build little windmills that pumped air and then the stored air was later released in a modified "steam" engine altered to use compressed air to in turn spin an electric generator? I think that bloke was me. Yes, now that I think about it a bit, I'm sure it was and storing energy as compressed air is really quite easy and works well, although as with all things, there are some drawbacks. Storage volume and pressure are two such "problems" that pop to mind right off the bat. As an alternative to the stored air model, which is very "mechanical" in nature, I was thinking that if we used a HOH (Brown's Gas if you will) generator to make hydrogen and oxygen from water, it would still be in the realm of "electric" for the most part. As for danger, as long as we strip off the oxygen from the gas production, hydrogen is really quite safe. It's super hard to store (except under water or oil) but it's relatively safe. Along the lines of "safety" you'll notice all the pictures of the Hindenburg "exploding" are really just the super structure on fire. The hydrogen went "up" and was all gone in a matter of a few seconds. Hydrogen is, after all, the lightest element on the peridoc table. As long as it's kept away from oxygen, it's a teddy bear. In industry, it's used as a cooling agent in generating commercial electricity. I'll restate here that hydrogen "burns" (albeit explosively) at 4% oxidation; that ain't much folks! I don't want to minimize the fact that we still have to use some care and caution when playing with hydrogen, but let's please get that "bomb" idea off the playing field. EDIT: Just ran across THIS. It's likely out or our league. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi mack I am not into space travel as its to cold up there. Seriously though the breakdown of hydrogen and oxygen is relatively simple and if done with all the safety precautions is can be stored easily, as in the old type gas cullender's that used to dot the skyline for gas storage years ago, also in the past when I got pissed off with the gas suppliers I made a unit that produced oxygen and hydrogen separated and stored by compressing into large storage tanks, they where made from fuel storage tanks, heat passivated to remove residue hydrocarbons, the gas was compressed to 20 PSI as that was what was needed to work the Oxy torch. This reduced the gas costs to my workshop by 90% and no cylinder rental ripoff. The above waffle is to say that it can be done simply easily and very cost effective providing the input energy is low cost such as solar or wind. The point made before on cooling the gas makes it more dense and stable and removes the heat energy absorbed into the gas and pressure induced heating caused by compression. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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AMACK Senior Member  Joined: 31/05/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 184 |
Hi all, I am not an expert on hydrogen but reading some of your post puts a new light on a few thoughts I have had in the past. The idea of using a wind mill to produce air was one I was going to look into but still have not got there yet. I was going to use a water wheel on a creek about 200 mt from the house to send air up the line as it is cheaper than copper wire over that length of a run. I spoke to a friend in town that works in the area and he said if you are using large air tanks and high pressure I may need to have all the safety valves and equipment tested and tagged each year or so. The main reason I put up a post was to say that my father has got an old gas unit that was used during the war time to run a car as fuel was hard to get. I am not sure of what it used as fuel but my father said that he thought they used the gas from wood or coal being heated to a high temp. I am not sure but I thought that you blokes may have a better understanding of the process. It is a large cast iron box about the size of a pot belly stove. AMACK *Note to self 1. Make it thick 2.Make it heavy. 3.Make it stronger than it should be. 4. Don't rush the first job as the second job will cost more and take mor |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Well Bob, if it were such a cheap and easy solution you could bet it also were available commercially at sensible prices. I'm sure you know that the capacity (of a capacitor) depends on the plate area and the dielectric that's in between them. Plate area has been increased to an astonishing rate so that nowadays capacitors sized in tens of Farad can easily fit into one's pocket - something unbelievable 40 years ago when I trained in electrical technology. However, the cheaper super capacitors have a maximum potential of only 2 Volts or so, not very practical to store RE power. Also, the storage is not indefinite, they also leak their charge across the dielectric and do that probably worse so than lead acid batteries. So its only a short time storage available from capacitors and that's the way they are used now - in monster audio systems or to boost the acceleration of an electric vehicle. I would consider heat as a potential energy storage, there are many ways to do that. Klaus |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Tinker I agree on the heat storage system as a solution and as we are only using the storage as a short term load balancing device it is a practical solution that I have used in the past, using freon as a gas transfer agent and waste oil as a storage medium. The capacitors have a leakage problem as well for long term storage but once again for short term not a problem, they are easy to make and cheap, and don't have the cross technology conversion losses that other methods suffer, electricity in electricity out even with a small dielectric loss it is better than state conversion losses, and as the volts are increased the wattage stored increases, up to dialectic loss threshold or breakdown of course. The fact that they aren't commercially available has little to do with it as by the nature of commercial profit taking they aren't popular. For non mobile applications the size and weight of the storage medium isn't important, we as a bunch of experimenters have the opportunity to use our collective intellect to make use of simple solutions rather than Hi tech unreliable ones. I / We can use things that are not commercially viable as we do all the time in our windmill and solar systems to achieve autonomous energy life style, it isn't cheaper but you do have the satisfaction of being non dependent on public infrastructure as we found out here in the last flooding, where power isn't being restored for up to three months in the worst hit areas. Living isn't just a cost effective cheap solution, we buy a new car for $70 K that will be in the scrap yard in ten years and winge about buying two more solar panels for a $1000 to be independent, must be the Irish ancestory. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
My new Australian friends taught me a new slang term! "WINGE-ING" means "Complaining. From yelp.com Hi Bob; It appears that you and I have similar Views on storing energy. or at least recovering methods. The Fact that refrigerants can produce high pressure Gas at temperatures we normally see as cold is a means to Harness passive solar energy. The equipment associated with a turbine or a more efficient piston type (air-Gas)Motor is a bit complicated for average DIYourself'er. Here is a crude and cheap solar collector, certainly not a new idea, that nearly anyone can build. and would be useful for home heating in higher latitude where Sunshine tempers the frosty Winter. It would cost a few dollars, But if heating with Gas, Oil, or Elect. it would quickly pay off. Asphalt, an old abandoned road, removal of parking lots for new construction, some times may be free for hauling away. A pipe grid made from Hi temp plastic such as used in hot water systems in homes. A Large tank buried and insulated, Example, 946 Imperial Gal. (1000 us gallons,to be heated to 135 Deg.F., 57 Deg.C. assume 90 Deg.(32 C.) to be the lowest usable temperature. ( There is one btu per degree F. in one pound of water). A US gallon weights 8.345 pounds, so crudely 1 gallon of water heated 1 degree will hold 8.3 BTU more than it did before. My Windows calculator shows that 1000 gallons water heated from reference temperature, 90 Deg.F. to 135 Deg F. will store, (1000Gal. X 8.35 pounds = 8,350 pounds), 45 degree increase per pound of water will total 375,750 BTU. if you divide this total by a cloudy 24 hour day, your output can supply 15,656 BTU per Hour. 3.41 Btu = 1 watt electricity. 375,750 BTU / 3.41 = 110 kilowatts, / 24 Hours = 4.59 KW.per hour. Solar Heat = 1000+ btu per square meter figgered at 40% in the winter with a wind fence or Plexiglas Poly enclosed, the outside ambient will keep the plastic cool enough in the summer if ventilated. Do not circulate the water in summer except for heating your pool. Add a softener to the old asphalt,something that evaporates and build a 3 meters square 10 ft.x 10 ft.(9 square meter, 100 sq. ft. slab, at (400 watts per sq. meter 40% rough), = 3600 watts Hr. at 6 hours sunshine, = 21.6 kw hr.s This will raise the water temperature 8.82 Degrees F.= 73,656 btu This will not be a 100 percent answer to heating in all places but can put a large dent in the fuel bill. Don't forget a circulating pump will be needed. I just realized how much wind iv'e sent to oz. hope you's can use it. Nothing Is engineered, this is a general outline of something usable. Bugs may exist.. 
Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Greenbelt Good stuff mate, may I suggest oil as a heated medium as it can be got hotter and hold more energy, then LP gas as a fluid in a closed circuit pumped through a heat exchanger to provide the energy transfer to a sealed unit motor designed along the lines of a valve timed governed steam engine. All that is needed is a refrigeration sealed shaft output for the generator drive. As the whole lot lives in a sealed circuit there is no loss of gas and the oil has compatibly with the LP gas so it circulates to keep things happy and lubrication the pumps and all. To do service on it the whole motor container is vaced down so no large loss of gas to the atmosphere. Using your idea for a collector and a trough collector to top of the temperature to 180 deg C. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Why a shaft output at all? Refrigeration motors run for decades completely sealed and submerged in oil so a generator should do the same. All that's required is a sealed wire connector through the housing. Klaus |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Klaus Our hobby is continually changing and the fitting of a internal generator limits you to a single path, rather than a prime mover power unit that can do various things, some may want to pump water or try different styles of generators or cut fire wood for winter., All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Bob, Tinker; The reason I used water in this example is Two expensive items, 2000 gallons of oil is not cheap. and a 2000 gallon tank will cut off your Beer allowance. Oil has a specific heat of (.48 btu per pound per Deg. F., This is Kerosene. all other Oil's are less, Mid continent Crude is (.44 btu). This means that the tank will need to be (1000 / 480 = 2.08 times larger to store the same quantity of heat. Note; Water is (1). I agree that a long term trouble free system would be a sealed system where a gas like propane or butane could be mixed with oil as the prime mover while storing the heat with another oil system, probably kerosene or diesel oil. An air type gas Motor could be built with a Generator attached and hermetically sealed using a magnetic link to a transformer pickup winding, The transformer primary winding could be inside creating a iron core magnet that couples to the secondary through the non magnetic housing. My wife has a tooth brush that sits in a little cavity when not being used, Its little Lithium battery charges by magnetic coupling. In the future when the Asphalt Highway is built it will have heat collecting pipes installed. the system will run huge generators that will power magnets in the roadway, a vehicle traveling this road will have the batteries charged while moving by way of magnetic coupling. The Sodium that is being used to store heat works well but requires extreme temperatures, This equipment is costly. I don't see Grid power ever being reasonable to purchase when using thousands of computer controlled mirrors to focus sunlight and all the high temp requirements for plumbing, the maintenance will need a full time Army of Technicians to keep it running. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Greenbelt The reason that I considered oil is that it can be picked up as a waste product from car service centers and truck oil change shops for the effort of carting it away. Also it can be run at 180 deg C whereas water can only be run at 90 deg C. this makes up for its heat storage deficiency, and lots of scrap iron parts from scrapped cars can be included into the mix enhancing its storage capacity without causing corrosion. The cost of tanks is a problem but if one is a scrap crawler, time expired fuel tanks are available, I picked up 2 at a farm disposal sale for $100 1 @1000 gal and one at 500 gal. I have seen the n\magnetic link coupler but thought it was a bit out of our skills range to make and expensive to buy. I have played around with the heat exchange method to run a steam engine years ago with a heat exchanger flash steam generator, I then went to Freon with a sealed system, it worked OK but the freon was expensive and in the end the idiot government made it illegal to buy, having used PLG as a refrigerant gas in some of my experiments I tried that and found it worked well and only cost $4;00 a gallon. Using gas isn't as efficient as a steam conversion power wise but steam has condensing issues in a closed loop system. I read a paper on the induction power of cars years ago, but the cost of it was way to high on the highway, for town cars with parking bays activated during the day to load balance it was better but still not as efficient as a plug and play system, which was also cheaper to install and maintain. I have seen the passive solar pond with salt working and it is OK but takes a lot of area to get a significant storage capacity. I still like the home made capacitor storage system running at 250 volts or so with a down converter to 24 volts for home use or a switchmode converter for mains enhancement, using a current limiting converter the overall efficiency is around 90% whereas the best diesel power generation is around 30% unless a combined source motor is used then it can get to 50%. It can be done with existing bits cheaply available to all and with due care of the DC component it is safer than having a 1000 gal of boiling oil in the back yead, imagine how the insurance industry would look at that, same applies to boiling water to a lessor degree. What we need is a smart cookie to work out what the cold catalyst to break down water is, then we would have unlimited power at a reasonable price and a price on our heads from the oil industry. Dream Dream All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Brown's Gas To Methane Update I tossed up a post on the physics forum and so far, the replies have been just a lot of banter. Evidently, there's no such thing as a quick-and-dirty method to convert hydrogen to methane. Too bad; it sounded so promising. I'll keep monitoring my thread and maybe some smart cookie will chime in with the answer. Converting water to methane would be a neat trick and the methane could be used for cooking, heating or low-power internal combustion. I'll bet there are more than a handful of folk who'd give their left *%! (leg) for some free methane instead of having nothing at all for the next 3 months while the electric power infrastructure in Australia is revamped. Wouldn't it be a feather in our caps if we could come up with a quick solution so all those now-homeless folks could have one less thing to think about? Say, here's a neat LINK And it that doesn't excite you, check out THIS ONE! . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Hi Mac, Those links are good reading, especially the second one. The carbon Nanotubes seem more robust to me than a bunch of germs that are probably sensitive to temperature changes, and chemical impurities in their working enviornment However we may be able to find out how they do it. Thanks for passing this on.----Roe Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi mack Years ago I did the engineering on a methane gas producer on a commercial pig farm, it produced enough energy to run the whole farm with no power input and had storage for a week, so it doesn't make much sense to me to go to all the trouble to try to make methane when it is a natural process that happens for nothing in nature. The farmers big problem at the time was to find a way to use it on motive power such as truck and tractor, high pressure storage wasn't an option. All this trouble to add a bit of Co2 and make methane then release it again doesn't make sense to me. The politicians may jump on the bandwagon to boast about the reduction of Co2 but that is as empty as their head. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Crew Well, fiddly-fie! I thought we were looking for an alternative "dump load". Maybe we should just build a circuit that sends overages to an electric air compressor and let it keep the shop air topped off eh? I knew the job was dangerous when I took it, but now the reality is setting in that it has become more of an impossibility than anything. Adding a silly carbon atom to a hydrogen atom "looked" easy enough; guess not. When I get my shop back working (T-minus 58 days and counting) I'll build another MacGyver Pumper (wind-driven air compressor) and post the details. As for the rest of the crew, who all manufacture electricity, diverting the dump load to a compressor motor may work as well as heating water, I dunno. When I post the build, I'll also show how to make a quick-'n-dirty little air engine to run an alternator using low-pressure compressed air. 'Till then, this boy's just countin' the days. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Mac Time will fly my friend, and you will be back at it again. Compressed air has a lot going for it, they have a small town car in India that runs on compressed air, not sure of the motor design but think it is high pressure, for compact storage. One of my dump loads is a normal air compressor driven by a converted car generator, it will absorb 60 amps at 27 volts, it is connected to my workshop compressor tank 300 ltr with several other remote tanks, the idea is to top up the supply so the 10 HP three phase motor does as little running as possible. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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