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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Windoze updates are now bricking laptops.....
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| JohnS Guru  Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3804 |
When I buy a used PC it inevitably has Windows and I try to install Linux such that I could boot into Windows (though I tend not boot into it, but it's nice to have the option). I've had Windows overwrite the bootstrap or the like but I agree never the BIOS. Re-writing the bootstrap using Linux is usually (*) easy so it's always been "just" an annoyance. Whatever happened to the machine shown, I'm doubtful it was Windows that overwrote the BIOS. (*) not so easy on some machines with UEFI being a pain, not to mention BIOS passwords John |
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9308 |
Very interesting. Thanks Mick and others for expanding on my request there. I now wonder if the video WAS a kind-of click-bait.... Hmmmmmmmm........  It is very encouraging to hear more then one member here state that Windoze can't/dosen't play with the BIOS. That's ultimately what I wanted to hear, as I don't think that should EVER be something an OS update diddles with - no matter WHAT the OS, Linux included. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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Quazee137 Guru Joined: 07/08/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 571 |
Years ago just before win7 had a computer that was infected with a virus that did take over the bios. The fix was to remove the backup battery and used a dip clip and my tester to restore the setting that was printed out and left in the drive bay. Also had to redo the boot sectors. Nasty bug may have been more then a few or a root kit. Had to rebuild parts of the registry using live Linux because any time windows was booted it reinfected every thing. All he wanted was to recover his last copy of Rosetta Stone software $$$. Some sites back then it just wasn't a safe place for a single guy to take a windows system to.  Quazee137 Edited 2023-07-17 10:17 by Quazee137 |
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hitsware2 Guru Joined: 03/08/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 713 |
BUT ... PC's have not been produced with a *'BIOS' for years . I don't know about the does or not , but Windoze definitely can .... * An actual BIOS is / was on ROM ..... my site |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2350 |
not that i am one to be argumentative  ... but i can see no reason why Micro$oft would not publish BIOS updates through their windows update.most BIOS updates (and here i include UEFI under the umbrella term "BIOS" even though they are, strictly speaking, two quite different things) are shipped as a windows executable file that you (1) run, and then (2) reboot windows. this is the exact same thing as windows does itself when installing many updates. further, a UEFI is far more complex that a BIOS, and may indeed need patching to avoid some of the nastier pieces of virus software that are being developed to attack via a running Windows 10 or 11. in many regards, the UEFI could even be considered an operating system in itself. once installed under the guise of a 'BIOS update', a UEFI-targeted virus would be extremely difficult to detect or eradicate. cheers, rob :-) |
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Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6798 |
In many cases you can't normally update a proper BIOS from software as it's either a) running from ROM, b) been copied into RAM for execution and will be overwritten on next boot or c) in manually write-protected flash or battery-backed RAM. It's also a pig because you need a different version for almost every revision of every motherboard unless it's a "generic" BIOS with only very basic functionality. UEFI is designed to be updated by software. You tend to need it's co-operation in order to update it though as it's in control of the hardware. It's not a simple process like resetting a write-protect flag - it won't let you. Edited 2023-07-18 02:10 by Mixtel90 Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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stanleyella Guru Joined: 25/06/2022 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2129 |
My pc froze last night... when I was using mmedit, coincident, no mouse, cntrl delete didn't work so turned off. Then reboot and nothing just fans noise. no dos on screen just says no input. No beep at boot. Doh. Replaced with laptop and small vga cos sharing screens is cool but had to search for drivers for my old epson dx4400. Preferred the desktop pc :( |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3804 |
UEFI has not been helpful when installing Linux... not exactly a shock, though! So far, enough magic commands from a "DOS" window or the like has resulted in a happily dual-booting system. I don't love powercfg or bcdedit, however. John |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6798 |
I think it was UEFI that caused the problem when I tried to install Mint on one of these little fanless boxen (with Secure Boot off). Mind you, it could equally well have been odd hardware. I never did figure it out as Win 10 Pro was already installed. :) Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| hitsware2 Guru Joined: 03/08/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 713 |
I wish I would have kept a pre-uefi pc ... I used to go from distro to distro to distro by switching usb sticks  I have had no luck at all trying to get a uefi unit geared towards Windows to boot live Linux usbs ... my site |
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| okwatts Regular Member  Joined: 27/09/2022 Location: CanadaPosts: 59 |
and that's how Micro$oft likes it! |
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| Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 458 |
From memory I have to turn on Legacy boot mode to install Linux on my laptop. I don't use dual boot but just get rid of windoze and install linux so legacy boot works fine Pete |
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| hitsware2 Guru Joined: 03/08/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 713 |
I have never been able to find ' legacy ' mode . Perhaps the small , cheap , pc's I've tried ? my site |
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| hitsware2 Guru Joined: 03/08/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 713 |
### AMEN ### my site |
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| Quazee137 Guru Joined: 07/08/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 571 |
The UEFI does caused problems with older Linux distros most new ones can work with it. As for me I kill all windows crap and install Linux. If need be stick win?? in a VM. Fixing infected and broken windows was a big side for years. After win8 I quit. Too much to deal with in a short time and time is money. Quazee137 I've been running Linux from back when we used a boot disk to load/compile the stack for floppies. Yes it took a long time to get running. Great feeling when you finely got most programs compiled and running. Now so easy to try any distro much like a multi car lot. One size does not fit all. Some say its all these distro's that keeps it from becoming a major desktop. But each has its pro's and con's much like XP,W7 are still used by many. |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3804 |
It's easier if you can use Legacy but not essential (on some, maybe all? systems). Early on I use Windows Shrink Volume to get an empty space for Linux. At least while getting Linux working you want to turn off things like fastboot, Windows hibernate (command prompt as admin, then powercfg.exe /hibernate off) and you may have to select a Linux-suitable .efi file (e.g. command prompt as admin, then bcdedit /set "{bootmgr}" path \EFI\path\grubx64.efi) Probably best to delete Windows hiberfil.sys Don't be surprised if you have to re-do some of the above, typically because Windows has reinstalled its boot pieces. It happens. Do be prepared to repair things from a Linux booted off a separate device (USB, DVD, an extra HDD, whatever you can get to work). I've certainly been tempted to get rid of Windows entirely but always figure I'll regret it. Er, not sure when!! Oh, I used a car diagnostic only available for Windows a few years back. Probably should have tried it in a VM. If anything bricks a PC it's liable to be me... but at least I pay very little when buying used PCs. John |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9308 |
I HOPE this is just bad luck. If your machine was not in the middle of a Windoze update, then we can be totally sure the update was not the problem - it was not even running an update. Unfortunately, computers CAN just die like that with no warning. I have seen it more then a few times in my carrer, so it's not just the hard-drive/SSD's that can die without warning, the MB can also!   Never a happy thing, but so long as you have a good backup regime, rebuild and restore - done. ...and we all here at the forums have good backup regimes, right? (rhetorical) Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9308 |
Sadly, yes, I think that is pretty much correct. With machines marketed towards the latest Windoze, and MS requirements for certain things in the UEFI to make modern Windoze happy, MS can effectively make life very difficult for people wanting to boot Linux in a dual-boot arrangement. I have always found the best way to tinker with Linux on a UEFI machine that INSISTS on booting Windoze no matter WHAT you do, is to simply DISCONNECT(or remove) the Windows system drive. The UEFI can then no longer FIND the Windoze install at all, and will fall back to booting from the USB etc, and up pops your Linux live USB's etc. But that is just what I do. Many people won't want to go to the trouble of physically disconnecting their HDD/SDD in order to force certain machines to boot a live USB. Especially if it is a laptop. And in all fairness, you shouldn't HAVE to do that either, but Windoze knows that you want to boot it, even when you don't these days. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| hitsware2 Guru Joined: 03/08/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 713 |
What if it's a eMMc drive ? my site |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6798 |
You can't - otherwise I'd have done exactly that. :) @ Stan It's a good thing to always have a USB stick with Puppy Linux on it and learn a little bit about it. The number of times that's got me out of a hole on Windows machines! You can even use it to connect to the internet. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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