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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : PicoMiteVGA: Stand-alone Keyboard Form-factor
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| mace Newbie  Joined: 04/03/2023 Location: FinlandPosts: 3 |
Is there any interested in redirect PIO VGA output example to 4x20 regular LCD display? Attaching LCD display straight to regular PC keyboard,couple of batteries inside the keyboard and you have portable computer. Like "pocket computer" where is BASIC interpreter and editor in same construction, without VGA connector but LCD display. |
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Mixtel90 Guru  Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6808 |
Probably not. The PicoMite isn't an ideal candidate for battery operation as it has no true "low power" mode. It's very doubtful if the VGA display could be redirected anyway - it isn't a character display, it's all pixels in a frame buffer. If you want a LCD display then you are far better using the non-VGA picomite and doing a direct connection to a LCD TFT. At least you can have a touch screen then. You can connect a text display via a com port or via USB providing it's an "intelligent terminal" and not just a display. You can't really do a lot on it though. It's like having Tera Term connected but much more limited because of the display format. Welcome to the forum! :) Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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Nimue Guru Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: United KingdomPosts: 367 |
Is use my PicoMite connected to Bluetooth - so that via a PC I can use it in class over terminal software -- so it is effectively undeterred to the pc. This works for me as it emphasises the "stand aloneness" of the device to students -- otherwise they end up thinking it is a dumbed down version of the PC itself. But what I then miss is a screen. Yes, I can wire in small LCD panels for display -- but "wires" (and teachers / kids) dont mix. Yes, I could design a PCB and 3D print a case - but "time" / "ability". Imagine ripping the guts out of a portable DVD player - keeping the screen element, but replacing all the insides with effectivly a VGA PicoMite -- add bluetooth so I can program via a PC -- and I have a killer educational device --- portable, selfcontained and programmable via a PC / Mac without additional keyboards. One of these from eBay for example: Portable DVD On thinking about it as I type this -- Easter vacation coming up -- might see how far I can get with this.... N Entropy is not what it used to be |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6808 |
How about a tablet as a wifi terminal to a PicoMite? Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Nimue Guru Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: United KingdomPosts: 367 |
OOOhh --- haven't kept up to date with the "wifi-ness" of the Pico -- is it at a point where graphics can be served up? As always the grail in edu-tech is simple enough to use, flexible enough to do "real" things with and "piss about with" proof to some degree. A tablet / wifi combo would work, but likely that 5 mins in kids would be doing other stuff with the device and teachers not able to "fix" / reset it. A screen that only connected to the PicMite - as either VGA or LCD panel -- and the mite bluetooth connected to a PC for "code entry" would be great. As always, the issue becomes cost in education circles. I've convinced many schools that the Pi Pico (£5) is the one to go for over the MicroBit (£30+) -- now I am in the process of considering how to make it as "accessible" (read simple) to use. What I mentioned before (PicoMite + Bluetooth) + breakboards works on the "cost" side -- with the only thing "missing" to make it more complete is a "screen". Have used small LCD panels (works great) but ultimately what I really need is to spend some time designing / 3D printing a case that encloses the "electronics" --- kids love to poke things where they shouldn't --- "Look miss it sparks" is the second most common comment over "Miss I'm a hacker now...."  Entropy is not what it used to be |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6808 |
If it's acting as a terminal then no, I shouldn't think so. Only the usual ANSI stuff. To get proper graphics you have to have the PicoMite tethered to the display. Kids only mix with displays when there's a foot of armoured glass between them. Then they paint on it or etch it with hydroflouric acid from a little bottle in their pockets. :( Polycarbonate is no use as they draw patterns on it with their cigarette lighters. :( Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Nimue Guru Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: United KingdomPosts: 367 |
Many many kids "leak" from all the face orifices simultaneously -- like Alien, its akin to hydrofluric acid.  Entropy is not what it used to be |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3813 |
Even if it could be done (as it can), isn't the screen part too expensive (for school)? Also, too fragile by far? John |
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| Nimue Guru Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: United KingdomPosts: 367 |
Yea - maybe. Price-wise -- schools will pay £xxx if the proposition is correct. LegoMindstorms racks in at £xxxx but many schools will pay as the support material / lesson plans etc are there. Plus the kit is quite robust. I have PicoMites and integrated Waveshare panels 1.5" in use and they are "OK" for 9/10 year olds. Fiddly but "OK". As I have commented on before, the plug, unplug, replug keyboard & monitor is one of the major "no no's" in a class -- the teacher then spends more time trouble shooting that using the tech. CMM2 offered that "power on and go" - as long as you had a dedicated PS2 keyboard and spare VGA cable --- and still the physical connecting to a monitor proved a problem in class. Of course the perfect product would be a "laptop" based on a PiPico (or CMM2) -- there was a RasberryPI one that booted into Linux at one time -- but it was (a) too expensive £300 and (b) the Linux experience proved "challenging" for the kiddos. PicoMites boot to BASIC is the draw -- turn on, code. Attach physical I/O and off you go. N Entropy is not what it used to be |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3813 |
You have to power even Picomites somehow :( I guess that means a 5V PSU with cable to uUSB to the Picomite? Would the kids be OK using a VERY cheap Android tablet as screen & keyboard (I guess via WiFi / BT to the Picomite)? (Android would have to be locked down so they can't do bad things, I expect.) I'm guessing they could not use their own mobi (e.g. don't have / aren't allowed one). John Edited 2023-03-19 03:05 by JohnS |
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| Nimue Guru Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: United KingdomPosts: 367 |
The PSU is fine -- have even used USB powerbanks (think they only need to "work") for an hour or so -- so a powerbank is good. Tablets - are "OK" - the kids can always use them. The issue there is more of "the kiddos can use them better than the adults" - so as a result they need to be locked down. And then they need to be charged -- always goes wrong. An integrated PicoMite + Screen would work "best". I'll see what I can knock up over Easter. N Entropy is not what it used to be |
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Hawk Senior Member  Joined: 15/07/2021 Location: AustraliaPosts: 141 |
Once you get a stable product, the support material can be produced. To get the money, leadership want to know how it links to the curriculum. This sounds great. How many kids are you teach at a time? Is this a core curriculum activity, or a extra-curricular activity? I agree, ‘Boot to BASIC’ is the draw card. Even with a RPi it is possible to break the OS. The ability to turn it off, turn it back on again and start fresh is critical. I have seen it done with Linux laptops, and some sort of VM, but it’s more complex. For older students, as a special interest group, I saw the ability to breadboard up your own computer, piece by piece and then program it as amazing. Each element of the design can be completed individually, and tested, before progressing to the next part of the design. I’m no longer in the education area, and have gone back to engineering, but I still dream of running some sort of activity like this for kids. Mike |
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| Nimue Guru Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: United KingdomPosts: 367 |
Here is Wales we have a new curriculum as of Sept 2022. This makes it a legal obligation for all teachers of children (up to age 16) to be taught "coding" and interfacing with "physical computers". For those in primary education (<11 years old) this can be quite a challenge as they themselves dont have the skills. So they reach out to Scratch as it appears to be easiest. But what happens is that they and the kiddos just copy the blocks to reproduce someone else's code. They dont learn CS techniques. So they then turn to Microbits / Mindstorms -- and again tend to focus on block coding. Same problem. PicoMites (and Arduino's to some extent) offer a solution in the form on symbollic coding - and as mentioned -- boot to BASIC. Now if someone could make a "boot to Python" type product that would really fly. School's will (and do) regularly pay £2,500+ for a product called "Maestro" which is essentially a canned set of lesson resources (minus the IT kit). Money in education is less of an issue than most people think if the proposition makes teachers lives easier / less hassle. Currently I am teaching 15/20 teachers at a time - and then this spins out to them using this in class, with my support. At that point there are 25(ish) kiddos and two teachers (them and me). These are "curricular" activities - part of the delivered schemes. Initially it starts with a couple of sessions of Scratch (move the Cat - make it jump etc) but we move on to coding Scratch in JavaScript (we have a learning platform here in Wales where they have a modded Scratch that lets you code the blocks in JavaScript which then runs as normal Scratch on the Stage). The development is that then we break into teaching (the staff) and the children "proper" CS methods -- abstraction, loops, conditional logic etc ---- and then the big reveal is a set of BBC Electrons -- to introduce them to "Boot to Basic". After the history lesson, the PicoMites (and Microbits using uPython) come out. There is a real commercial opportunity here "to do it properly" as most IT / CS stuff aimed at children is either (a) dumbed down to the point of patronising or (b) makes the assumption that anyone less than 16 cant code in any other way than Scratch. Regularly I come back to wanting to go solo and provide support to teachers / children in a way that is not constrained by the "politics" of the curriculum. But - "time", "effort" and "the day job" constantly get in the way! N Entropy is not what it used to be |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6808 |
It always comes down to the displays, doesn't it? They are either more or less immobile or fragile or both. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 9133 |
Nimue I'm passionate about education and would be happy to help develop a dedicated product that could be manufactured cheaply. Please try and define what ,in an ideal world, that product would be and we can try and iterate to something that I can design and build at a sensible price |
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| Nimue Guru Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: United KingdomPosts: 367 |
Ohhh man -- can't verbalise what that means  Let me consolidate the issues I see almost every day and the unique challenges in that environment -- whats works and what doesn't. I won't give a gut reaction here -- give me a bit to write it up in some manner and I'll post a new thread so things don't get lost and dilute other threads. Excited!! N Entropy is not what it used to be |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3813 |
Would it be useful or not for such a thing to have any of the sort of edge connectors on the micro:bit? (For croc clips?) Or indeed other kinds of connectors? How electronically robust should the inputs/outputs/power rails be? E.g. do they need to survive short-circuits etc? I don't need an answer, let alone here, I'm just trying to get thought going. John |
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thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4047 |
The real question may be how "slime proof" it needs to be. I would imagine from the basis of no knowledge whatsoever that the electronics hardware aspect is "easy" for a number of the shedders. The industrial design and production of a short-run child proof case may be something else entirely. Best wishes, Tom Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| Nimue Guru Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: United KingdomPosts: 367 |
Yea - kiddos manage with the Microbit and breadboards so as long as supervision involves "no water" or drinks -- I think we should be OK. Microbits are notoriously difficult to kill. N Entropy is not what it used to be |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3813 |
The reason I wondered about a tablet for screen & keyboard is you get so much display for so little money, whereas even a 2.8" SPI display is quite expensive and doesn't start to be a keyboard. John |
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