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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : PicoMite: I have a dream
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| Volhout Guru  Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4253 |
Let me tell you about my dream, and maybe somewhere they align, and we can join forces.... My dream started around 2004 when windows 98 was replaced by XP, and we lost control over the parallel port. We actually lost the parallel port hardware soon after. Up to then most of my projects centered around quickbasic and control through this parallel port. I had multichannel programmable DC loads controlled through opto isolated I2C and such. And in my work I ever since looked for a way to connect my hardware needed for my work, to a PC. Due to the nature of my work, I need to gather test data, measurement data and convert that into communication such as reports. That is why the PC will allways be centric to my work. It is the way to communicate. At the moment most of my PC hardware interface is based on Arduino and MX170. I can use the libraries and build in fuctions (such as SPI, I2C) to control test objects, switch relays, read opto isolated inputs (essential when working with high voltages) in the test setups. The hardware interface (Arduino/MX170) is intelligent in that it can execute software faster than what I can control through the serial (USB) port. So for fast analysis of decisions the devices run (tiny bits of) basic code. For the rest, the PC controls the IO through the serial port. Control languages on the PC is either TeraTerm scripting, or (on linux) bash scripting with expect. A photo of some of the Arduino UNO cards I made, specific for a task.  The upper card has 4 opto isolated inputs, and a isolated high voltage PWM output (100kHz PWM). The one below has analog switches, where the analog voltage is controlled from 2 UNO PWM's. I use this to convert normal logic levels (i.e. 3.3V SPI) to +2.4V / 0.8V SPI to check if circuits work under worst case logic levels. The one below has a mechanical relay, an opto input, and an analog current controlled fiber transmitter (check for linearity faults in fiber receivers). This combination works for me, but my dream would be to have a better PC solution. TeraTerm scripting works great, but is limitted since it cannot do any calulations for you. Linux/bash/expect is nice, but you need so many command line tools to make it work (sed/bc/tr/grep etc....) and it takes long time before you actually have something running. I have my hopes set high for Will's MMBasic port for linux. And I hope he can put serial coms and telnet support in it, to communicate with the outside world. About the small basic computer with screen and keyboard. I am sure that it would be an eyecatcher, and a technical achievement. But the practical use is limitted (say me, who has worked with 7", 9"and 10" and the build in editor of MMbasic). Trust me, with the appearance of Windows 11, many companies will convert their laptops, and the market will be flooded with W10 laptops, choose your screen size and weight, for close to nothing (25euro...100esuro). That, in combination with a IO module will give you a much better platform to work with. Volhout Edited 2021-11-02 18:29 by Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6812 |
I share your pain. The PC parallel port was very useful. My first PIC programmer used the Com port. Even the game (joystick) port could be used even if it was a bit slower. I considered getting one of the Velleman kits that gave remote I/O over USB, but it was quite expensive and rather limited as the PC end didn't seem to have any obvious way for user programs to work with it. The 'Mites are a dream come true to those who like their computers to actually *do* something. :) Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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lew247 Guru Joined: 23/12/2015 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1702 |
What I haven't seen (unless I've missed it) Is the fact the Pico can output DVI signals easily and only needs 8 pins Yes that might put some people off but DVI to HDMI adaptor cables are readily available and there is no licencing issues with DVI as it's open source. DVI adaptor board  Edited 2021-11-02 19:03 by lew247 |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6812 |
The best hope for video output from a PicoMite is probably a character based display with the timing generated in a PIO. That way there's no need for a frame buffer because there's no graphics. OTOH it's not as pretty as a VT100 terminal. :) Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4047 |
Like Mick I suspect that the market for a "Boot to BASIC" educational computer has long gone and that niche is now occupied by things involving Python and its unnecessary (for the simple education cases) complexity. If I was required to produce such a device then as a software guy I would be looking at the Pi's (and I'm not just saying that to pimp MMB4L, I don't need any additional pressure/incentive in that direction) as they seem to fulfill all the hardware needs admirably at a low price point due to mass production and multiple uses. The Pis boot very quickly and it must be possible to mimic a "Boot to BASIC", c.f. the RetroPie distributions which to a good approximation hide Linux completely and boot to the "Emulation Station" whilst making escape to the O/S unlikely to happen by accident. This isn't to say that I'm not following the possibility of a Pico computer with interest and no doubt would buy one, even if sometime later I wondered exactly why  .I've never met this "Will" bloke but if I do I'll give him your regards. In the meantime your pilot for this journey is "Tom", nice to meet you  . I'm sure serial comms will come in time either from me or @lizby, I'm not so sure about inbuilt telnet support but when the time comes I'll be sure to ask for opinions and suggestions.Best wishes, Tom Edited 2021-11-02 20:26 by thwill Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4253 |
@Tom, A famous Dutch saying is "a donkey never stumbles over the same stone twice". This proves I am not a donkey ;). I made the same error twice now... And yes, I feel shame about it. I think that shame is human. Doubtless, before I die, I will make the same error again. Dear Tom, please don't be offended, I am just more stubborn than a donkey. Can't help it (unless I force an early death). Best regards, Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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| Calli Regular Member  Joined: 20/10/2021 Location: GermanyPosts: 74 |
Wow, that took off quite fast :) Thanks for all the Input. Maybe there will be sometime another option (e.g. a Pico with more Ram or such, at least we have 2 Cores!). The key things with the Pico as base is that I want a workbench experimenting "computer" which can be used to develop on the Pico(Mite) and then take the code and put it on the controlling Pico in a Project. And that I like to play. And that the MMBasic on this small thing is so nice and versatile. I fact I am sure that it is not a option for everyone, but I am a Maker by definition and profession and like to do seemingly impossible things :) Maybe I try someday to share a TFT by a ESP32 or Pico (VT100/Keys) and the PicoMite. Did I say I want true Pixel-Graphics?  Cheers, Carsten Edited 2021-11-02 20:44 by Calli |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6812 |
The beauty of the PicoMite for me is that you don't really need anything special for development, a breadboard and a laptop is enough. I also have my backpack now, so I effectively have the touch screen and he PicoMite as a single unit and just link the minimum of I/O to a little breadboard. I can save the program to SDcard and read it into a different PicoMite. The SDcard boards are cheap and work well. You can even just solder wires onto a microSD adapter at a push. :) If you wanted a minimum PicoMite installation on something, just fit a 7-pin SIL socket and connect it as an SD card, then you can plug in a SDcard and adapter when you want to reprogram and remove them after. Very little PCB space or cost. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| bigfix Senior Member  Joined: 20/02/2014 Location: AustriaPosts: 128 |
When you consider a dumb terminal as development interface to a picomite, it would currently need a USB interface What was the reason that a picomite cannot have a true serial console ? I vaguely remember some discussion about this Serial Console over USB is fine for most uses But sometimes it would be nice to have a plain TTL serial port i.e. for connecting to some network bridge function or true dumb VT Terminal The only way I could eventually work around this, is by flashing special firmware to the Hobbytronic "Mouse Chip" we use in the CMM2 USB Host CDC serial SW I never tested this - but in theory it may work (however more $$$ than a pico...) |
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| lizby Guru Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3152 |
Thanks for that, Lewis. Don't know if I'll ever use them, but just in case, I've ordered 5 picosock PCBs from JLCPCB, slow boat shipping, for the grand total of $4.60. ("only needs 8 pins", LOL) PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| Tinine Guru Joined: 30/03/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1646 |
This thing any good? |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 9139 |
Absolutely not. The VGA takes over pretty much all of the Pico - nothing left for MMBasic. There will be no console mode for the Picomite written by me. It's pretty crap on the Armmite F4 on small displays and as I said before the MM+ uses H/W scrolling to make it work and that isn't available on any of the small displays 480x320 is actually 320x480 and the scroll works up/down the 480 |
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| lizby Guru Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3152 |
(I assume the frame buffer memory issue would also apply to the picosock DVI PCB setup.) PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 9139 |
Yes You mean like this?  Watch out for beta 4 later today |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6812 |
LOL! Do you never rest? :) Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Calli Regular Member Joined: 20/10/2021 Location: GermanyPosts: 74 |
As I have attention now:  Does anyone know of a Android VT100 emulator which can talk over OTG via USB Serial? I either found "dumb" terminals which can do this, or VT100 which talk over SSH or to the Android Linux Shell. Could not find both. Then it would come close to my idea, using a Tablet and a Small-BT Keyboard. Cheers, Carsten |
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| Tinine Guru Joined: 30/03/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1646 |
I use Android tablets for HMIs and I had the same idea some time ago. Searched and searched for some BASIC source that I could throw in to RFO BASIC! To no avail  |
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Cyber Senior Member Joined: 13/01/2019 Location: UkrainePosts: 161 |
I program PicoMite via USB only, and I had doubts whether it will let program itself via COM port like Micromite does, but I did not try. So you are saying it definitely will not? |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6812 |
No. When I wrote that beta 4 wasn't out. You may well be able to now. :) Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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CaptainBoing Guru Joined: 07/09/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2079 |
I've only just seen this thread... go figure. My solution (similar to Harm's) was to build a workshop assistant out of a MicroMite Xtreme with matherPs little VGA monitor he published a few years back. Super fast 'mite and the fastest before the H7 materialized (I think 250MHz - very respectable) It has a PS2 keyboard and a hardware interface full of drivers and opto-couplers. I defined pins for it with a load of CONSTs that give me standard pin names on the connectors: OUT01, IN17, AIN03 etc. The software set it all up and you end up with a standalone device that is easily programmed with pins and interfaces in a standardized nomenclature that can be used for loads of things around the workshop... just some pins to exercise modules and circuits largely in dev and fault-finding. I must say I haven't used it in a while and it was only partially finished, being a bit of a rats nest because it became useful before it became finished   I need a nice "console style" case ... I have partially designed a two-level jobby with keyboard in front, slight angle upwards for bread-boards, power jacks etc then angle up some more for the included VGA screen.As with many projects, once started they get over-taken by other things I am inspired to dust it off and finish it now. Edited 2021-11-05 19:33 by CaptainBoing |
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