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Forum Index : Solar : Running pool pump with treadmill motor - directly off solar panels
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Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1022
Posted: 10:38am 31 Jan 2021
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I have one of those little pumps setup in a friends camper van, its the AC motor version, same pump end and yes brass impeller (daisy wheel thing) and cast housing that rusts up seizing the pump if it is not used every 6 months. It works good enough to run an shower and a kitchen sink.
There are quite a few brush motors around to chose from depending on what voltage one wants to run at or that might not mater. A lot of them are not made to run all day long, and can get hot without some sort of modification. The other week a fella had a broken vacuum cleaner, literally fell off one step to hit the ground (300mm drop) and plastic Sh$t flew everywhere, he give it to me and I finished it off with a hammer quick smart, put it out of its misery. It had its own cooling fan and thought it might run ok connected to a few solar panels, It went like a jet.
With these DC motors setup for pumping or whatever, we know what we are in for, in the form of maintenance and such, we would expect to change bearings and brushes, not a big deal if parts are handy and repairs can be done on the spot then be up and running again in a short time.
The common AC induction motor often run many years without any problems, Obviously we all know this, But to put this in an off grid remote pumping scenario, its more likely to have inverter and electrical problems and down time could be a big issue, depending on the situation, Might not be much of a problem for a DIY FIX YA.
A lot of motors have a temperature cutout to save the motor from over heating, but the switch can often fail open circuit, if someone wanted to put there own programmable over temp cutout on the motor, that could be a fix. Edited 2021-01-31 20:39 by RevlacCheers Aaron Off The Grid
Yeah I've looked at those a few times, but the pump housing just looks too small to be very useful. And not really cheap enough for something just to play with.
This one looks interesting to me though: https://ebay.us/xGvyxs
Looks to be the same type of pump on petrol transfer pumps. If it can do half what they say it could be quite useful.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 12:42pm 31 Jan 2021
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Yeah, I agree.
I have decided to bite the bullet with a few toys in the near future though. I'm going to get one of those little diesel heaters ( Oh the irony!) Look at importing a couple of 2 bearing gen heads as I haven't found anything here in years of looking that is what I want and a few other smaller things I have bought over the last couple of weeks.... So far the Mrs hasn't been too upset.
Yes, solar pumps have pretty much done away with the old windmills now. Those things are horrifficaly expensive to put one in and even the parts are a fortune. They are around $30K last time I looked and go up from there. Solar pumps can be a couple of grand and more dependable overall from what I read.
Would explain why I never see a windmill now in my country travel.... Unless the thing is 150M tall, white, and got 3 huge blades on the thing and blights rather than complements the landscape. I loved windmills as a kid. Had a fascination for the Old Southern Cross and Comet types.
rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 852
Posted: 01:39pm 08 Feb 2021
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Just an update on my pool pump setup.
I happened to walk past the pool on the weekend and noticed the pump running super smooth and quiet and immediately figured that the belt had broken.
Well it wasn't broken ... but it had chewed out on one side and jumped off.
I guess not bad for 12 months of running hours and hours every day ... especially during summer.
Anyway, of course the spare belts I have here are too short and too long ... shows my slackness in being prepared!!
So I slit the damaged section off so that I now have a 3 rib wide belt instead of 6 ribs. I nipped it up and it ran well ... but by lunch time I could tell it was slipping a little.
I figured it was a good time to try out your suggestions ... so I grabbed an idler wheel (from the fan belt system on a Nissan motor I have sitting around) ... and held it down on the belt.
It would certainly apply pressure and not too much friction ... but it really sounded like it was just loading it down more and not really helping.
The other option I had often thought about was some sort of spray to make the belt more sticky ... so I shot down to Repco and bought a can of spray on the recommendation of the assistant ... but on reading the instructions realised it was for conditioning belts and stopping belt squeal ... not for adding stiction.
I gave it a good dose, but I may as well have squirted it in silicone. Made it nice and slippery and it wouldn't have mattered how tight it was, it just wouldn't have had any drive.
Another trip down to the bearings and bolts place and I bought a can for adding grip to belts.
I cleaned the slippery stuff off the belt and pulleys with acetone and sprayed it up with the new gear. It still felt a little slippery to start with ... but as soon as I powered it up, it ran quieter than it's run for months ... and despite being 5.30 pm ... was running with a decent amount of pressure still.
I should have done that from the start ... it certainly seems to have solved my problems.
Now I just need to hope the half-width belt hangs out till the new one turns up from eBay. Cheers, Roger
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 08:50pm 08 Feb 2021
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New one ? I would have bought three Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 10:06pm 08 Feb 2021
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Might help to run some light pressure with the tensioner on the new belt as well. I don't think that belt stick stuff lasts forever.
I like the spring tensioners in particular. Means you can have the motor and load far enough away to get belts on and off without undoing anything and they are always correctly tensioned and you don't have to worry about stretch.
The spring action also takes out some of the snatch forces by allowing a bit of slack at startup or when a load like a compressor drops in.
My Kubota Mower Deck has a spring tensioner on the back of the V belts and that system seems to work very well also.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 10:31pm 08 Feb 2021
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Agree with Dave about the spring tensioner.
One other random thought, I don't know if those belts are Ultraviolet stabilised, a year in full sun can do terrible things to some materials.Cheers, Tony.
Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1022
Posted: 10:47pm 08 Feb 2021
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I have a flat belt drive on the old MF grain grinder, it had some sort of sticky stuff on the belt to help it grip, been sitting for almost a year and now the belt is welded to the pulley, will need a hammer and chisel to remove it. Belt was from some factory food processing so they would have some food grade stuff for the belt, don't use honey it will tear the belt apart.
I know a belt tension will noticeably increase friction but still work well enough, the next idea would be to use larger drive pulleys at some stage when some can be found.Cheers Aaron Off The Grid
rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 852
Posted: 01:06am 09 Feb 2021
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Normally I would have too ... except to get one in Aust they are $35 plus freight ... and the only Aust sellers I can find all quote long delivery times ... which only means one thing to me ... they don't have them in stock and I'll end up waiting a long time.
What you've written makes sense Dave ... but I played around with the tensioner idea for a while ... and even just gently applying it by hand and varying the force and placement ... you could immediately hear the motor slowing considerably ... and it never would pick up speed until I removed the idler.
I don't mind having to give it a squirt of sticky stuff every now and then even if it does only last a few weeks.
The beauty of the direct solar drive is that there are no snatch forces ... when the sun comes up it just gently starts its work for the day and builds up to a decent run ... and later as the sun disappears you hear it just idle down until it stops.
Admittedly if I was to run the AC motor regularly without taking off the belt, it would help a lot there.
It is fairly well shaded and has a cover over it ... but there's no question the belt feels hard and aged and probably a bit shiny on the inside from slipping at times ... so a nice soft new belt should grip far better hopefully.
Yeah, it's amazing what lack of use will allow. I never thought of trying honey, just as well by the sounds of it. I did wrack my brain for a while trying to think of something we might have around the place to try ... but the spray I ended up buying is designed for the job and certainly easy to apply. And it's a bonus that it seems to work too.
A small timing belt with teeth across the belt appeals to me to prevent slipping ... but that then means finding appropriate toothed pulleys to fit as well ... so I'll stick with what I've got.
The other thing that comes to mind is that the belts normally drive a treadmill mat ... which by itself is no great feat ... but with a lumbering 200lber bouncing on top, they must have reasonable stamina.Cheers, Roger
brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548
Posted: 09:14pm 09 Feb 2021
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Good Morning ,
This topic interests me ,,as I have a very old (11 days older than myself) South Bend lathe that needs a new belt.
Oh, I'm 76 years ,if you are puzzled),
The belt runs on flat pulleys, they may have a slight curvature crown ,but the belt is original fibre/canvas composition that had steel fastenings . These made some clicking noises I removed the steel fasteners and stitched it up with my old sail makers needle and palm and some paraffin wax on the waxed stitching thread. Worked perfectly for some 15 years, .
Question is , does anybody know of a distributor for fibre 1 inch (25mm) flat machinery belting ???.
Bearing service and those big machinery parts stores have helped, but no luck with the supply of belting.
I can buy it from south bend in America , buy would you believe the freight starts at 50 dollars US .. (maybe close my eyes and just buy it).
I',ve tried those grooved car timing belts , but matching the pulleys is the hard task.
I read where you guys apply stuff to belts , well, I once had a can of resin liquid, that could be used on machinery belts, fairly sticky stuff . suppose you can't get that stuff today ,be nice in a spray can ? -I think resin is made of stuff that comes from gum trees ,you know that sticky red stuff that oozes out when a branch breaks off ?.
Ok, interesting topic, I remember using all sorts of brushless motors on wind genius years ago.
Bruce.Bushboy
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 09:28pm 09 Feb 2021
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Pretty sure you could use a standard multigroove automotive belt turned inside out to get the flat surface. These belts are made to bend both ways, so that should be o/k.
A one inch wide belt would be a seven groove belt (7PK) plus the length in millimetres. Part number for a 855mm long belt would be : 7PK855.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 12:18am 10 Feb 2021
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Never seen that before! I can only assume that the motor must be right on or over the edge of it's output.
I don't think you would nessacarialy need a toothed belt. They are mainly used for driving things that have to stay meshed as it were. Just going up in size in any pulleys even at the same ratio can reduce drag and give better grip. Larger pulleys have more surface area for the belt to bite on and cause less severe bending of the belt around the pulleys. This results in better belt life and lower friction because the tension can be eased off. My Brother in law worked in power transmission for a long time and did stuff for factories and mines etc.
A lot of people whom work in these areas do not believe in deflection and other tensioning rules, their method is to only tighten the belt enough so it does not slip or excessively flap . The smaller the tension of the belt the less the wear on bearing and the belts themselves. You see a lot of huge pulleys in industry for the reasons above, better power transmission, less slip, less tension required and longer belt life. They also tend to use a Bunch of belts ( mainly V) to spread the load and reduce it on the individual belts.
If you wanted a toothed belt,you could get the pulleys from wreckers. Subarus have some 5-6" pulleys on the cam. most are a fibre type material but some are metal. I have used these on my stationary engines simply because I could get them cheap and then had BIL or local machine shop turn me up the shaft collars to suit the shafts I wanted to put them on. The cam Belts are pretty long usually but like everything else come in different sizes. I just used the engine ones as they weren't too far spaced for what I needed.
Any OHC belt driven engine will have the pulleys.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 12:45am 10 Feb 2021
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As Tony mentions, you could try the Micro V grove belts. I have an old lister and some Chinese diesel engines that run flat faced flywheels. I run the Micro Belts on them the normal way to drive alternators with the groved pulley. The lister has 2 alts with a tensioner in the middle. Admittedly the Lister has a 23.5" Flywheel so there is a lot of surface to grip but I have never seen or heard the belt slip yet even though the alts will pull more power than the engine is capeable of. Listers are also known for Lister flicker with generators which is caused by the huge torque pulse when the engine fires.
I run one Alt on the flywheel of the China engines, flywheel on that is probably 14" or so and they don't slip either and I have stalled the engines out with other loads on them. The Micros bite quite well on flat surfaces. I don't know how they would go on say a 2" Pulley but I would tend to think if the canvas/ fibre belt works, the Micros would too.
The only thing I would say to running them in reverse is the micro surface seems to be more " Rubbery" than the back which you can often see the " canvas" or cords just under the surface and on belts that run tensioners on the back can often glaze up. You could try them both ways anyhow and a bit of belt grip could only improve things.
I have put a LOT of hours on running the belts the normal way on flat flywheels and had no problems at all even running them on painted surfaces.
Oh yes I absolutely would believe it!! Pretty much expect it really.
BS postage charges from the states are a pet, no, HUGE peeve of mine! Bloody insulting if you ask me. I have wanted stuff the size and weight of a matchbox and they want $25-50 for " Freight". I have a couple of mates in the US and I have got things many times delivered to them and they stick another address label on it and take it to the post office for me and send it for a few bucks generally. We settle up when I see them with a couple of beers.
For whatever reason, Businesses and Fleabay seem to think it's open season pon sending stuff here and treat us as stupid. I can get a Box of Bricks from China for $10, from the US they would want $500.... Per brick!
A tip that may be useful.....
If You are Buying on Flebay, Look at the Canadian and the UK sites. Only a few months ago I wanted something I saw on the US fleabag site with the predictable insulting and idiotic postage charges. Went to the Canadian site and the price of the item was a few bucks more converted but the postage was about 10X cheaper. I ordered and got the bit, forget what it was now, but then I discovered that it was from the same seller I saw on the US site and actually was sent from them in the US.
It's a complete Rort! The UK site is similar but I have seen some of their postage charges getting a bit stupid as well of late. Must be following the US site policy's. A friend of Mine buys a lot of stuff through the Japanese Fleabag site as well. She is a Japanese language teacher so OK for her but there are options than just the US.
Check out the Canadian site in particular and you may be able to avoid some of their ripoff tactics. Edited 2021-02-10 10:46 by Davo99
brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548
Posted: 02:44am 10 Feb 2021
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Ok, thanks guys.
I have a couple of those ribbed rubber timing belts of a long suitable length that a mate gave me....
I did not realise you could turn them inside out and still get the grip????
I'd have to cut and glue? join it strongly, but I'm thinking of a taper ,then some very good rubber glue. I've seen small tubes of very expensive glue, and wondered why they are so expensive, now I realise. they must be very special. Can someone help me out -can't get an image out of this bottom line of geeky stuff,lol. Thanks again,
Bruce Edited 2021-02-10 12:47 by brucedownunder2Bushboy
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 03:13am 10 Feb 2021
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No need to cut it !
They are available in any length in 5mm increments. What length do you need Bruce ?Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 09:21am 10 Feb 2021
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Yeah, I wouldn't even attempt to cut and join them.
I could not possibly see how you could get any strength back in them unless you over lapped them and then they would be making flapping noises all the time IF they held and IF the join didn't create a Spot where the contact area was reduced and invoked Slippage.
Maybe for a test belt you could join with some rubber strip glued or vulcanised on the back.
Time you buy the right glue, probably the same cost to just buy the right size belt.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 09:55am 10 Feb 2021
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To fit an endless belt to one of those old lathes involves removing the main spindle.
If its built like this one, just unbolt the two saddles, fit the belt, and put the saddles back.
Cheers, Tony.
brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548
Posted: 10:57am 10 Feb 2021
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Hi, Couple of posts back ,on this subject, I,ve poster a link to my lathe and the ribbed belts.
Could a more competent person than I see if you can download it for my post, please.
It , the photo, shows my lathes gears are on top and yes, I have dismantled the gear train a few times , for it requires an endless belt .. Thank you BruceBushboy
Chopperp Guru Joined: 03/01/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1057
Posted: 11:19am 10 Feb 2021
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I got a short sample of 1" flat belt from Russell & Sons here in Toowoomba QLD a year or so ago. Quoted price was reasonable if I remember correctly.
The joiner was pretty dear. They come in wide strips. Cut to width.
BrianChopperP
Chopperp Guru Joined: 03/01/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1057
Posted: 11:19am 10 Feb 2021
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Double post Edited 2021-02-10 21:20 by ChopperpChopperP
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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