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norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670
Posted: 10:37am 01 Mar 2014
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Yeah where does the UV go the panels don`t convert to power? How about when we plaster sunscreen on our skin. We know it blocks the UV, cos we don`t burn. But where does the UV go then? Reflected away perhaps.
Just to clarify my earlier post and I`ll use the IWT`s again. Apparently 95% are for IWT`s 5% against them in their backyards. 95% are for and know jack all about IWTs except what their told. 95% ganging up cos its socially correct. Bit like the abortion argument, nearly every bodies got an opinion but who listens to the pregnant women and forms their opinion from those pregnant women.
About solar farms up here in the north we have a massive bonus because of our latitude in solar production, where are all the OZ solar farms? Further south you go the more of them. They are not built where their output is the best but where the people are. Is it just because that is where the power is needed, considering line losses or is it because collectively that is where the vote is? People power again perhaps.
To illustrate my point, the coal power stations are built where the coal is, economic sense. Doesn`t economic sense apply to solar farms? We`ve had coal power stations built on the coal fields in QLD for about 75 years, hundreds of miles from the population. Were the powers to be more sensible back then? Couldn`t have been they had bugger all education. My tongues firmly in my cheek again.
AGL are building the largest solar farm in the southern hemisphere at Nyngan NSW, why there and not up north? Simple answer it is directly subsidised by the federal and NSW Govt. Along with AGL those two govts are putting in the money for the capital cost to build such. Before tax payers money was pledged to this did the govts consider where the output of those panels are best considering line loses etc. I`ll wager they didn`t, suspect AGL would have come up with the figures and told the govts to make it viable it will have to be subsidised.
I`ve presented figures, showing we do not need tax payers money up here to build these things. "But" they cry "these figures cannot be correct otherwise why aren`t solar farms built up here".
One bit of joy, received a email from our local Councils CEO on Friday. Our Council is now looking at putting panels on their roof, hope its not lip service.
Yahoo2, May now have the answer as to why the utilities will not connect less than 1Mw to HV lines. Simply its the cost of the transformer, labour, crane etc, apparently that cost is more then a 100Kw solar installation costs. 100s of 1000s. Edited by norcold 2014-03-02We come from the land downunder.
Vic
MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819
Posted: 12:20pm 01 Mar 2014
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Hi Vic et al,
Very valid remarks you make in your last post.
It is as plain as the nose on our faces that we will never have "clean and green" as long as we live in a world based on economics. Sensibility should be spelled $ensibility ??
One day, but not in our life times the people of this world will wake up an realise that we are all intimately linked with nature and that we can not drive it to do our bidding at our command. Nature will rebel and will always win.
When humanity has run its race and vanished from the face of the world, there will be no more religions and hence the gods the people believed in and most importantly, the great god MONEY will also disappear. Perhaps then, the world can re start on a new and better course?David M.
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 01:46pm 01 Mar 2014
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Hi All
The matter of location is largely a matter of government support and lobbying from the commercial interests and has little to do with actual practical issues. However when you consider location as compared to energy available some sites as Norcold's seem to excel while others are low grade sites but when you factor in the line losses experienced by all transmissions of power the equation is somewhat balanced out, if we had all PV farms in the north the power transmitted to the south would be inefficient due to line losses.
The key to success is the distribution of sites all around the populated areas, the inclusion of a 5KW system on 50% of houses and a 50KW system on business premises would produce the majority of electricity needed in the daylight hours, the mega farms in remote locations would contribute due to time zone shift and lower cloud cover issues.
Wind would contribute a bit more in the windy south if done sensibly.
Winter in the south with short days and lots of cloud is balances somewhat by long days in the summer and more clear skies, from my penance in Victoria and playing with early high cost PV panels is showed me that it could work to a limited degree, but not as a commercial year round proposition, that is why I went on to explore solar steam plants which where a bit better due to large storage of energy, but more dangerous to unskilled users. Small wind turbines contributed to personal systems and as a combination with PV would make a contribution to the overall system.
The solar systems fitted to government buildings are a move in the right direction and some solid before and after figures would be interesting to see.
All the best
Bob Foolin Around
electrondady1 Senior Member Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208
Posted: 04:10am 02 Mar 2014
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gee mobi, sounds like the subsonic windmill noise has got you down.
humanity is still in it's infancy.
it's only about 2 million years since we stood up on our hind legs.
for most of that time leopards have been our greatest threat.
they evolved. about 11 million years ago.
a few people lack vision and can't imagine a world any different than what exists now.
people have always been aware of their ties to nature until very recently .
every one is ready for a sustainable world right now
it the scum on top that's holding us back.
our sun is 4 billion years old
it's good for another 4 billion years until it turns into a red giant.
I'm betting we win that race.
MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819
Posted: 11:54am 02 Mar 2014
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I wouldn't say that it gets me down but it does make me wonder what major catastrophe it is going to take to make mankind wake up and as I say, it won't be until MONEY is no longer important.
GREED is an all powerful way of life that has no consideration for anything or anyone.
This thread isn't really the place to be discussing this, but again during last night, I woke in blind panic and this morning, woke up exhausted and aching. That NEVER happens when we are away from the turbines no matter how long or short the duration.
David M.
norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670
Posted: 09:47am 03 Mar 2014
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Greed, is built into us all, sort of an instinctive thing. Guess it is part of all successful animal species, without which the species becomes extinct. I am finding it is a stumbling block to promoting solar in my area, we have discussed the stumbling blocks to getting a large system up and running. But I am hitting a brick wall, I didn`t expect, I should have, guess I am somewhat naïve.
No one has been direct and come out and said to me what is your angle. I`ve freely showed the financial figures, my land is not the only piece of land suitable, far from it there are better sites. More elevated, thus more daylight hours. But I get this, for want of a better word, feeling that I am hiding something. That I must have a personal angle, that I cannot be promoting solar purely because I believe. That there must be financial award for my efforts. I can only put this down to greed, to be so suspicious.
It is as though it is not acceptable to push something without financial gain, and when you think about it that, we push to better our lot most of our lives. To get this project up and running I need money, and where do we turn for that?, the government of course. I see doing that as a backward step. In the long term solar needs to stand on its own feet and my figures show it can right now, even more so in the future. But that is the biggest stumbling block, getting those who are in a similar position to myself to see I am prepared to put my money where my mouth is. I need partners, they only need to put in as much money as I am prepared to.
The risk is no greater then in other ventures, the financial rewards are there for my project. I`ll do well out of it that I am fairly certain. But I am being open, potential investors can freely build on other land. No there is more to this then the eye can see.
If I can get over this stumbling block, dealing with the corporates and govt depts., though difficult will be a breeze. Like in the Abortion debate, I`m the pregnant woman, just need them to listen to my argument appraise it on its merits, not to listen to the knockers. The 95% who follow like uninformed sheep.
I am getting to really understand your position Mobi, to use that analogue again, Mobi your the pregnant woman in the IWT debate. However I am much more fortunate, I get good nights sleep and I can walk away without losing all.
I apologise for my ramblings and probably should just push the reset button. Tis a shame Mobi you couldn`t just push that reset button and go back to before those IWT`s came along, and learning from your experience I keep that reset button handy and close. Softly softly.
On a more positive note our lads are doing well against South Africa. Go the Ozies. Edited by norcold 2014-03-04We come from the land downunder.
Vic
norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670
Posted: 10:54am 03 Mar 2014
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Back a few posts, said I`d take a few photos of a fruit packing plant. Took a lot of photos and have chosen this one to best represent the power use and size of these packing plants. This was taken during a break whilst waiting for a held up truck to deliver more empty cardboard packing trays. The ones you see with mangoes in the photo.
The pellets being filled on the left, show the many different sizes of fruit ,one size for each pellet. If photo was taken during operations their would be 20 plus workers in photo. Packer for each size and a number of "humpers", those who take the filled trays and place them on the pallets. Plus another 6 loading the conveyor belts "desapers".
The desapers remove the stem from the fruit, immediately ensuring the fruit enters the washers to ensure no mango sap "burns" the mango skin, (for appearance sake in the Supermarkets). Out in the field at the time of this photo was another 40 plus pickers, picking the fruit with another 4 transporting fruit to the packing shed by tractors.
These plants use a lot of power, all during daylight hours, from the photo you get an idea just how big the surface area of the roof is. My challenge is to convince the farmer to cover that roof with solar panels, a capital outlay that I know will pay for itself running these packing sheds during the packing season and running the irrigation pumps the rest of the year, with the excess going into the grid.
I have not the farmers permission to give the capital outlay you see here nor the amount of power it consumes. It took a wee bit of persuasion to be allowed to take this photo, never mind post it. But I do have the permission to inform you folks, proudly, there is not a single dollar of tax payers money invested here. It all comes from the produces sale, and a very enterprising family of farmers, of which my area has many. Also not a dollar of corporate money.
And a Titbit after 7 years of operation the final approval for the building was passed by the fire department last week. When they originally applied for the many permits required, they were told it would take many years to get such. They took a big punt, built it immediately 7 years ago telling the authorities they could not wait. Turned their backs on political correctness and the beauocrazies and achieved despite all the crap.
Next time you shop in the Supermarket for fresh produce, think about what you see here, and importantly THANK the farmer. He is a silent achiever above all others.Edited by norcold 2014-03-04We come from the land downunder.
Vic
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 11:15am 03 Mar 2014
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I am amazed at how the sun will be shining and in sheds like this there is all those big lights running. Surely there must be a way to get natural light in.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
electrondady1 Senior Member Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208
Posted: 11:30am 03 Mar 2014
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who pays for the panels.
can you offer the farmer a discount over the power authority's price?
there is a law here in Ontario that allows me to power my own place, plus, any of my neighbours, as long as i don't cross a road it's legal
maybe something like that exists in aust.
there are a lot of companies around here that install solar on peoples houses and such and
they get you to sign a contract i don't know the details about it but a lot of people around here seem to be going for it.
i see a lot of farms now with big tracking systems.
solar panels seem to have come down in price lately
saw some advertised @a buck a watt.
............................................
mobi, corporations thrive on disasters now
when it's sink or swim, people will pay anything.
underhanded seems the new norm.
Edited by electrondady1 2014-03-04
norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670
Posted: 11:33am 03 Mar 2014
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Madness, the logistics of getting light where it is needed makes artificial lighting the only feasible option. Imagine bright sunlight just on top of each packer, the UV rays etc etc. If those solar panels were up on the roof your observation would be academic, would it not? What you see took a lot of planning, thought and dollars.
Your immediate observation is spot on but that option was well explored I know. Believe me lighting is a minor power consumer, think about that 100m plus of conveyor belt, the automatic sizers, the automatic washers and scrubbers, the automatic drier and the automatic polisher etc etc all requiring electric power.
Electrondady1, The farmer pays for the panels as he paid for all what you see and a lot more you don`t. The panels pay for their outlay by their saving on power bills thus a cheaper product for the consumer, again THANK the farmer everyday you eat.Edited by norcold 2014-03-04We come from the land downunder.
Vic
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 12:22pm 03 Mar 2014
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It is easy to filter out unwanted light wave lengths and diffuse what's left.
Of course putting panels on the roof would power the lights. I am talking about sheds and other buildings in general.
My father is a retired farmer and I know what you mean about being set in their ways. Along the highway east of Gatton on the southern side there is 3 large tracking solar arrays. I am guessing but it would appear they are there to power 3 phase pumping. Also my neighbour here runs a lot incubators and has 2 large tracking arrays to reduce her power bill.
In the Sunshine Coast Daily recently also there was an article about a mushroom farm that has installed solar system with batteries to power there refrigeration.
There is some uptake happening, word will eventually get around. The farm I grew up on would have been ideal for solar water pumping as water was pumped fom bores into a dam before being pumped to spray lines. THe bore pumps could be run on solar only in this case. The irrational sprays though are best run at night because of evaporation etc.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873
Posted: 01:00pm 03 Mar 2014
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norcold,
The farmers building the shed without approval shows the "red tape" environment we live in as all three arms of gov. and their public servants get involved. "Maximise authority and minimise responsibility!" seems to be the slogan.Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.
Winston Churchill
domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873
Posted: 01:05pm 03 Mar 2014
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Saw the following in shops: 530 grams of peaches in juice and glass jar, $2 and made in China! Or only $4 for a kg of peaches. Looks like another SPC Ardmona disaster is brewing as we will soon also be eating all the food produced in China and not here.
We will be soon in the same position as the Europeans, where crustaceans get caught in the North Sea, then transported to Morocco for processing and then trucked back to Europe for sale.
And here we have farmers struggling to get a shed built because of red tape!Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.
Winston Churchill
norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670
Posted: 03:12pm 03 Mar 2014
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A good site to see a OZ wine producer using solar is De Bortoli`s, my interest was stoked not just by the solar use but cos I like a drop or two of "the vino" with my night meal. Plenty of uses for solar on the web, they outlay the capital because it saves expensive power bills, it is financially viable and practical. Now I`m pumped up for a meeting tomorrow.
Thanks Fellows.We come from the land downunder.
Vic
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 06:52pm 03 Mar 2014
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Hi All
In the not to distant future the cost of power will effect most small business, so the solar option is a long term money saver for them, as long as they have the facts and not a lot of the rubbish marketing being thrown around by some solar companies.
Soon they will wake up to the potential of solar farming even if they use most of the produce.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 07:20pm 03 Mar 2014
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Power bills will only go up, every time someone gets a bill shock they will be doing their homework.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462
Posted: 07:56pm 03 Mar 2014
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Until storage is fixed, those who decide to use off grid power just have to get used again to "When available"
As it was hundred or so years ago with Wind millsGeorge
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 08:38pm 03 Mar 2014
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????
I am using off grid 24/7/365 batteries do work, they could be better but they are far from broken.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 09:10pm 03 Mar 2014
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Hi Madness
I agree that batteries do work on a self managed system but if you expect them to do a 24/7 commercial feed in system they would be prohibitive cost wise, but not impossible,
Huge NIFE cells could be made to carry a large load but not practical for a continuous grid feed system,but in saying that there isn't the need for it otherwise why would power companies sell power at greatly discounted rats in off peak times.
Most of Australia's heavy industry is now gone overseas so the power to keep steel furnaces going 24 7 isn't there any longer, and the way we are going we will end up a cottage industry tourist destination for asia where they can buy back their own exported junk trinkets and clothes.
As George said it is time to look at when and how power is used for a practical PV system, as in Norcold's area the primary use is daylight hours and then make use of off peak power from the grid. I can see a positive for the farmers to put together a PV farm for their own needs and not worry if the bit they sell back to the utilities is making a profit, just saving money is more important as money saved isn't taxed and is a better return on investment than any other part of a business.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 09:42pm 03 Mar 2014
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Used to be we where riding on the sheep's back.
Now it's the coal, gas and iron ore we are exporting, without that we would be f#@$ed.
Argentina used be on par with Australia 100 years or so ago, look at what they have now and that would be us with out digging stuff out of the ground. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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Plenty of uses for solar on the web, they outlay the capital because it saves expensive power bills, it is financially viable and practical. Now I`m pumped up for a meeting tomorrow.