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Forum Index : Solar : Solar and wind hybrid system in Finland
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| anteror Senior Member  Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
This is my solarpower unit. I have two of these units, in other place, because of the shadow of the chimney. Together, 2750W and connected, to load my batteries, without any charge controller. 
You can see half of my batteries here. NICAD 2000Ah 24V. 
My windgenerator. Connected without any charge controller to batteries, with self made robust 3 phase rectifier. There is a writing in this site about it; http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5285&PN =1 
This is my energy meter, with 500Amp shunt. 
This is my inverter. I have 2 units of these, 3000W pure sine vawe. Have worked 24/7 without any faults for 7 years now. From; https://www.fraron.de/wechselrichter/reiner-sinus/24v-auf-23 0v/swi3000r24vu-reiner-sinus-24vdc-230vac-3000-4200w/a-25626 12/ 
In the summertime, when the weather is fine..and the winds are lowest, I get my energy with solar. In the wintertime, there is very windy in Finland and I get my energy from wind. Hybrid is the only option in Finland 
Solar power ends in october-november and the polar night begins. Antero Rantanen Finland |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Windpower and solarpower are the cheapest energy sources in this world in more ways..., that people now understand at all 
Here is an article, with a lot of graph and research about it; http://cleantechnica.com/2012/12/11/renewable-energy-big-pic -including-34-charts-graphs/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_mediu m=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IM-cleantechnica+%28CleanTechnic a%29&utm_content=Netvibes Antero |
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| Georgen Guru  Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Lack of charge controller for so many years proves that when batteries' capacity is way over the wind/solar system it is not required. Interesting what will happen once batteries get older and don't carry as much charge? George |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
To Georgen; Sometimes when its very windy or sunny, batteries go to overvoltage. My inverter shuts down automatically at 32V. NICAD batteries do not mind at all from overvoltage, or from undervoltage. They charge these batteries with 500 or more..Amps in the ship, where these batteries are from ! Actually they are fully loaded at 34-35V, in 24V system. BUT IF ? you really want batteries that will last forewer and you can charge them with any power or means or take power to the knees, Edison batteries; http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/ I have unit like this for controlling overvoltage, but I have not connected it yet, because I use all the extra energy to heat my floor, with the inverter No; 2. http://ghurd.info/dc.html It is set to dump at 31,6V, with some new components. To connect the dump load, I have this 220Amp Power mosfet. http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL _LITERATURE/DATASHEET/CD00002654.pdf It connects without any relay tips, which are the most critical part in big DC loads. I have made my own dump load from a quality resistance wire 3,5mm. It is 100Amp at 30V. Ps. My three-phase rectifier, is made from heavy-duty bolt diods. We have these also here and they are cheap and reliable. DELCO 150Amp, but MUST be in a BIG cooling plate; http://www.windbluepower.com/Delco_Rectifier_s/30.htm Antero |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Antero, Edison Battery looks like thing for me. (20 to 30 years would suit me fine, especially that it is hard to kill them) What worries me is that Wikipedia says something that they are expensive. But if I can buy 50Ah or 100Ah every now and then, when finances are available. Within couple of years I could build acceptable bunch of them. Wikipedia says: “The voltage required to charge the cells is between 1.45 and 1.65 volts. The equalization charge voltage is 1.65 volts.” So set up is not very easy (for me anyway) Will have to have a look if there is something like that distributed by some Co in Australia May I ask what shuts down charging at 32V in your application? Does it automatically re-connects after batteries drop down in Voltage, or it just shuts down and you have to re-connect it manually? George |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Nickel Iron (NiFe) batteries are something well worth looking into for we alternative energy people. The short answer is that NiFe batteries have rather low performance for the weight and volume, but are very low cost to manufacture. In the Soviet Union, NiFe batteries were used exclusively for a great many years as the prime rechargable battery technology. In contrast, nickel cadmium rechargable batteries used in the west being far more expensive (but a much better performing) technology. You certainly would not want to use nickel iron rechargable batteries in any type of portable or hand held application, almost any other battery technology leaves it for dead as far as energy density goes. But Nife batteries have two very significant advantages, very low cost per amp hour, and a very long and reliable service life. If you don't care about the physical size or weight of your solar/wind battery bank, but you just want maximum amp hours per dollar, with fewer cell failures, this now ancient and almost forgotten battery technology may be well worth researching. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Is there anywhere supplier in Australia that can sell inexpensive NiFe batteries? The cheapest I found so far is 1.2V 200Ah for $165 + delivery http://www.ironcorebatteries.com.au/page2.php Battery or should I say cell is delivered empty and dry powder has to be mixed with distilled water, which is no trouble at all. At least 10 are needed and probably 11 or maybe even 12 should be OK for 12V bank. If true that voltage drops quickly. George |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
I would be very surprised if these are manufactured in Australia. Most probably they are reselling Chinese batteries at a large mark up. They sound very much like these from Alibaba.com: http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/472746931/Nickel_iron_rech argeable_Battery_For_wind.html Cheers, Tony. |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Could not see prices on Alibaba site for NiFe batteries. 50 pieces looks to be minimum. Suppose way to get 200Ah at 12Volts (10 pieces with 200Ah 1.2V) Would be to get 50 pieces 40Ah 1.2V Bit fiddly topping up 50 cells instead of 10, but if price is right why not. Another thing, customs, duty, delivery to home or pick up from the wharf. Does anybody have any experience with Alibaba? And most important question: will this product go the distance? George |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
I have no idea George, I just did a quick Google search for NiFe batteries. About thirty years ago I was battery applications engineer in Melbourne for Saft Nife Australia. Saft Nife were, and probably still are the largest battery manufacturer in the entire World, they make every type of battery EXCEPT lead acid and nickel iron batteries. Funnily enough the original Nife battery company started around the turn of the century, making guess what.... Saft Nife no longer make NiFe batteries, at least they didn't while I was there. I don't know about now, but back then, even large flooded nicad batteries manufactured by Saft Nife (in Sydney) were just assembled in Australia from all fully imported parts from Europe. If someone ordered say 100 large flooded nicad batteries, they would be assembled, so many of "these" sized plates into "that" sized container and plastic welded. They were all built to order. A very large single or three phase battery charger might then be custom designed (by me) to go with that order. That is how the company operated. There were no nickel iron batteries around anywhere except in Russia and Europe back then, they were a relic of a bygone age. This is the sort of low performance low cost battery that I would expect to see manufactured in places like India or China. There is now a growing resurgence in this nickel iron technology for several reasons. I believe the two main drivers being the low cost of the materials, and the extremely toxic nature of most other battery technologies. I doubt the demand for these NiFe batteries in affluent western nations is high enough yet for them to be locally manufactured, especially when they can be imported from low labor cost third world countries at much lower cost than local production. I have been out of the commercial battery technology field for a very long time, and know nothing of the situation today, which has probably changed drastically. It may be interesting to contact some of these Chinese NiFe suppliers and see what they are offering. The minimum orders are quite understandable from the suppliers point of view, and maybe even a Forum bulk buy order may be possible in the future. They are in business to make money, and if they keep getting inquiries from small users like us, they may change their tune about minimum orders if they can see sufficient overall sales volume. There comes a point where small orders may become worth their while rather than being just a nuisance. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Beats me why in Australia we don't have more people who see value in something that lasts up to 100 years instead of 5 to 7 and is cheaper to make? Would you see Tony benefit of getting 11 or 12 1.2V pieces in "12V" system due to lower performance, or it would be safer to stick to 10? George |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
If you were a battery manufacture, there is more money to be made with planned obsolescence than selling something that lasts forever. Sad but true. Not sure why Nife stopped making them, but probably it was a commercial decision to get into the higher performance types of battery. That is where the sales volumes and profit are. The whole battery market is largely driven by battery performance not cost. If you could invent a much smaller battery that packed far more total power, with higher maximum peak discharge current for powering very heavy loads such as cameras, mobile phones, lap top computers, and electric vehicles it would sell almost regardless of cost. Those toy radio controlled helicopters the kids have today could never operate from the old carbon zinc dry cell batteries we had fifty years ago, it would just not be possible to get one off the ground. Nobody wants a very big heavy battery only capable of relatively modest discharge current for it's huge size, even if it is cheap. Only use for one would be for standby power in a remote shed, where size is of no importance, or maybe in a ship or down a mine. I have never looked into the technical details of NiFe cells, particularly the discharge curves. Lead acid batteries have a steadily decreasing voltage with discharge, down to about 10.0 volts. The voltage then falls off a cliff. Useful battery capacity ends at around 10.0 volts for six cells, and that is the lowest voltage a battery load, including inverters have to work at. You would need to look at the discharge curve of a bunch of NiFe cells and figure out if you can gain any extra capacity by adding an extra cell or two without the voltage becoming too high at the charging end of the operating range. Most 12v inverters would be happy operating between about ten and fifteen volts. Anything outside that range would very likely be a problem for the inverter. You would need to look at the whole picture before deciding how many NiFe cells to use in your battery to get the most from the batteries. You either need some precise technical details and specifications for the actual cells, or ask someone with practical NiFe experience. If the battery company has an applications engineer, that would be the best source of advice if you cannot find it on a web site somewhere. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Agree, manufacturers dream of making items that don’t last to far past the now mandatory warranty period. Sure, very big and heavy battery is quite cumbersome, but so are larger Lead Acid ones. For me anything 30kg plus is heavy, but in stationary arrangement they are not going to be moved that often. For me ‘Life Expectancy’ trumps quite a few shortcomings. And knowing that ‘overcharge’, ‘undercharge’ are no big problem, are gems too. Remember when VHS won with Beta video tapes despite that Beta ones were better, looks similar here too. George |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
From this site I can probably get an answer, to not go past 10 cells http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/ [quote] Charging Parameters The proper float voltage is 1.45 volts per cell. If 10 cells were used, the proper charge voltage would be 14.5 volts. The charge voltage can vary from 1.46 to 1.55 volts per cell. Unlike other battery designs, the exact charge voltage is unimportant. A higher voltage will result in quicker charges but more water loss that will necessitate more frequent topping up with distilled water. Since the cells can withstand overcharge there is debate over what constitutes a proper charge voltage. The higher you go the quicker water will disappear from the batteries. At voltages greater than 1.5 volts/cell the batteries will store approximately 15% more power than they are rated for. If 10 cells were used, the charge voltage could range from 14.6 volts to 15.5 volts. It is probably better to use the 1.46 volts / cell level of charge in order to minimize water loss if the battery will be unattended for months at a time. Regenerative catalytic caps are available to combine the h2 and o2 back into water if unattended maintenance is required. There are also auto watering systems that are available. The proper equalization voltage is 1.65 volts per cell. If 10 cells were used, the proper equalization voltage would be 16.5 volts. This equalization charge is applied for 8 hours using at least C/10 current. According to Edison's original manual from 1914, it is best to completely discharge the batteries from time to time before applying the equalization charge. Edison also recommends a 1.7 volt equalization charge and he recommends changing the electrolyte every 5-10 years. This will all come as a surprise for lead acid battery users. In contrast to lead acid, the NiFe battery can be overcharged for decades at a time without damage and can be left discharged for years at a time and will still work perfectly when needed. [/quote] George |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
That all sounds fair enough. Ten cells for a twelve volt system would suggest the discharge end point would be at exactly one volt per cell. I have no idea how that would look on a NiFe battery discharge curve in terms of either hours or amps when starting from a fully charged battery. For a lead acid battery, the amp hour rating is calculated for a ten hour discharge rate (C/10) down to 1.67 volts per cell (6 cells x 1.67 = 10.0 volts). All batteries are normally rated for ten hour discharge rate. A faster discharge than that will reduce the available amp hours, a much slower discharge will increase it. Different battery chemistries behave in very different ways, and nickel iron batteries will almost certainly behave very differently to lead acid batteries in the way they both charge and discharge. Some batteries handle very fast high current discharges very well, others really die in the bum if you try to push them hard at fast high current discharge. The way the voltage falls, and the internal battery resistance varies greatly between different battery technologies, and this type of information is sometimes rather difficult to come by, but is vital for selecting a suitable battery type. I have no hard data, but I assume from what I have read that NiFe batteries are slower to charge (if you wish to avoid gassing), and cannot handle very high currents or fast discharge rates very well. That is not really a great disadvantage for us, provided the battery is large, maybe several days storage capacity at the fastest anticipated charge and discharge rates. If you had an odd application where the charge rate was low, but you had some very high intermittent discharge loads, one solution might be to connect some ultracaps in parallel with your NiFe battery. One ultracap for each two NiFe cells ? That would support some huge short term intermittent loads without serious voltage dips. Cheers, Tony. |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
My system produced in july -13, 517 Kwh. Since march it has produced 400-500Kwh in a month. SO..  I have produced all my energy from wind and solar.
I really needed this relay, to to deal with all the energy production..; http://www.takowa.fi/fi/kauppa/1-vaihe-ac-dc/hrn-64 I have two 3kw inverters and have worked fine for a very long time...; http://www.fraron.de/en/wechselrichter/reiner-sinus/24v-auf- 230v/swi3000r24vu-reiner-sinus-24vdc-230vac-3000-4200w/a-256 2612/ In the summer time the other inverter is all the time on, and is guided with the relay to get load, to avoid over voltage and shut down. My inverters shut down automatically, when reaches 32V. I have set the point to 30V, when it connects and you can set the point with the prosent reading in the relay, when it connects off(I have NICAD batteries and they are fully loaded after 32-34V..) -95% connects the load of when reaches 28,5V -90% connects the load of when reaches 27,0V etc I have directed the load to the water heater and floor heating and when it is shining.. , dishwasher and washing machine have been working. Also to to freezers.. etc We also pick a lot of different herbs, mushrooms and dry them with fan-assisted oven and also freeze a lot of berries, mushrooms and allso a lot of fish etc etc ALL with the power from wind and solar. IT is really easy to make ALL your own energy, with the wind and solar
Living with the clean power from the nature, INDEPENDENTLY in many points of view.. All my lights are LED and these really last and are good, very cheap. Have been working for me for several years and we ordered them with thousands to several places; http://www.ebay.com/itm/10x-E27-7W-LED-Lamp-Bulb-White-Warm- light-Energy-Saving-Bright-/280920807305?pt=US_Light_Bulbs&v ar=&hash=item41682f5789 Antero Rantanen Finland |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
My hybrid system make the turning point just today 15.9-13 Windpower produced more than solar power in one day period. From here on, wind speeds increase all the time. The best season of the year is autumn. Mushrooms, berries, fishing. Period of plenty.. I also have learned to really enjoy the time of winter, then we really know and feel the ENDEPENCE in our life, what we have achieved together with my wife.. we together two old crows. WE also built together, our own energy efficient, litle pension house. WE really do not want to travel. Airport, that really is hell 
Worlds Best place is here. Energy indendepence and best quality of food, without any GMO or additives..also independently. WE have got a super catch of the best mushrooms you can find in the northern forests. They are called here "stone mushrooms", delicasy mushrooms.(Boletus edulis) Some knowledge about this; http://translate.google.fi/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_ t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fkuntoplus.fi%2Fravinto%2Frav into-ja-terveys%2Fherkkutatti-eli-kivitatti&act=url We have dried the whole catch and we can feast the whole winter with these. They have much better quality of protein than any meat. They contain all the best minerals and vitamins, in a best possible way. Best food in the world, risotto made of these mushrooms. That was elected few yers back.. I highly recommend all this to you. Nowadays when I wake up in the morning..there has never been such feeling before. I really have made a connection to the surrounding nature and to all its wonders. So have made a lot of people all around the world. Here you can read about it; http://cleantechnica.com/ You can find THE REAL treasures, very near you.. 
Antero Here is a picture of one days catch of forests treasures. Picture taken by my wife Sari Rantanen and I thank her from that !! 
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Here  , is what Thomas Alva Edison said 1931..
Antero |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Looks like energy storage is biggest hurdle now. George |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Discussion about everlasting too good Edison NIFE batteries after my story. That you can find here in this forum and with very interesting points; http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5389&PN =1 Our weather and conditions. Power grids.. are they reliable and who will take care about them anymore
Locally produced power, that is the only option to come.. Power companies are history very soon and they REALLY know that, so why put money on grids and that will be.. !! http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/01/power-outages-become-muc h-common-severe-coming-years-better-start-adapting-now-resea rch-finds/ Make shure you have power locally and in your own home. Here some news about storing energy; http://cleantechnica.com/?s=off+grid+storage+batteries IKEA has been very successful in EVERY field, all over the world and no wonder.. ! Very good thinking and details in every product etc 
Here is some example what IKEA thinks about solar power; http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/ikea-reports-great-2013- sustainability-progress/ You should also think, again 
Very soon also your EV, or hydrogen car can bee your energy storage, with your own solar and wind power. Hydrogen in Germany. Mercedes Benz and other "big boys" promisies just in few years hydrogen stations..: http://green.autoblog.com/2013/10/02/daimler-others-promise- 100-hydrogen-stations-in-four-years/ Toyota is coming also very, very soon ! Toyota hydrogen car with home storage..
HERE(with Google translation.. ); http://translate.google.fi/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_ t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tekniikkatalous.fi%2Faut ot%2Fvetyauto%2Btoimii%2Bmyos%2Bkodin%2Bvaravoimalana%2Bndas h%2Btoyota%2Besitteli%2B100%2Bkilowatin%2Bpolttokennoauton%2 Fa957652&act=url Here from Toyota pages; http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_techno logy/fuelcell_vehicle/ Here from Gizmag; http://www.gizmag.com/toyota-new-fuel-cell-vehicle-fcv-ces/3 0474/ Honda has developed for a long time hydrogen home stations and cars. Here some pictures about that; https://www.google.fi/search?q=honda+hydrogen+home+station&e spv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=UJ72UpW0 KePNygP1yoDIBw&sqi=2&ved=0CIMBELAE&biw=1440&bih=785 There is NO doubt anymore ! Antero |
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