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Forum Index : Electronics : Car starting problems - pls help!
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| domwild Guru  Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Friends, Pls accept my apologies for being off-topic, but instead of joining the "I can't start my car" forum I place the question here and as we are all fixing things with fencing wire I beg your indulgence: Intermittent starting, Mitsubishi van, ca. 2005, 80,000km, battery new and 12.7 at rest, alt. OK and charging at 14.33 after starting. Once it clicked twice and started on the third try. The clicking was not a starter motor click but a clicking, which came from an unknown place. Once it did not even have the strength to light up the LEDs on the dash. I removed the cable clamps, polished the Batt. posts and after that it started OK. But the battery is new, i believe six months old and probably changed by mistake as the fault is somewhere else. The positive post on the battery has a plastic thing (relay?) on the batt. clamp, could that be the villain? In the "old days" the ignition lock had a light cable going to a relay, which switched on the high-Amps via a thick cable to the starter motor. Is the problem there in that relay?? Thanks, Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| Janne Senior Member  Joined: 20/06/2008 Location: FinlandPosts: 121 |
A couple of things to check first; The clicking from unknown place is propably an external solenoid, so that is one possibility for a fault. Other things to check are the rest of the high current wiring, including the grounding posts. Hope you get it running, report back how it goes. If at first you don't succeed, try again. My projects |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
It sounds like the no.1 problem of a bad main earth somewhere. I would start from the battery and check the earth cables and connections as i went. The common chassi earth is one of the biggest electrical problems in cars. We have all seen the car infront put its indicator on and the tail lights glow dull as well...Bad earth. A friend complained his cruise control stopped working when his brake light globe blew and then reported months latter it fixed itself when he bothered to change the globe. Modern cars use many sources for earth signals and the brake light globe was one...even that wont help you though. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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SSW_squall Senior Member Joined: 20/03/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 111 |
It is not unknown for a new batteries to sometimes have a defective cell or some other problem My Dad had a brand new lease car (commodore) once, the battery was no good and had to be replaced under warranty. Just a quick check: Monitor the battery voltage with your multi-meter, then switch on all the electrical accessories you can: fan, lights, radio, rear demister ect If the battery voltage sags below 12v within the first 20-30 seconds, then it's a fairly safe bet the battery is no good. AB Einstein: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Thanks for all the replies and helpful hints. As a pensioner I cannot dump my problem into a shop where in the end I could be charged a fortune. But I certainly have the time to look into it by following the kind suggestions. Interesting story I came across: Toyota vehicle, unknown type, woman found car starts intermittently, Toyota workshop could not find fault, friendly neighbourhood mechanic attached his electronics to the bus and found the BODY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM and not the engine management system occasionally switched on the immobiliser! Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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GreenD88 Senior Member Joined: 19/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 104 |
Usually a clicking is either a bad solenoid or not enough power is getting to the solenoid(IE: Bad ground or bad battery). Edit: Most modern Vehicles have the solenoid as a one piece with the starter and use a relay in the main relay panel to switch it on. Is the clicking a constant click,click,click,click.... or just one or two clicks? Licensed Master Plumber / EPA 608 Universal License / 410a Safety Certified / Medical Gas Brazer/Installer |
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
use a hydrometer to check the individual cells of the battery too. I agree that it looks like bad earth failing under load but stranger things have happened. The test of the charge status of the electrolite will tell you A) if they are all low -indicating charging / earth probelm B) if one is low it will be internally shorted and the rest have now gone high to make up the volts, they will boil quickly and stuff the remaining cells rapidly Karl Luck favours the well prepared |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Dom Turn on your parking lights and see if they dim when you hit the starter if they don't dim a bit it is a faulty solenoid, if they go nearly out it is either a bad earth connection or faulty battery. Clean cable ends where they go to the starter and engine block. Some cars have a auxiliary solenoid to lock out the starter when in gear for auto transmission and if the clutch pedal isn't depressed in a manual transmission. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I am still inclined to think a bad earth as a clue to this is the 14.33 volts charging you quoted. To me its a few volts to high and could point towards bad sensing between the battery and alternator (extra resistance somewhere) A easy test might be to put a jumper lead from the negitave post on the battery to a good earth on the engine block and see if that helps with starting it, as well check if that changes the charge voltage once it is running. Perhaps use the other jumper lead to go from the engine block to a good spot on the chassi incase its a bad earth there. A few quick tests to try that might help to narrow the field down for you. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| GreenD88 Senior Member Joined: 19/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 104 |
14volts is the normal charging voltage of an automotive alternator. Curious, has it done it since you cleaned the terminals? Licensed Master Plumber / EPA 608 Universal License / 410a Safety Certified / Medical Gas Brazer/Installer |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I should have said.. a few percent of a volt to high. Yes 13.8-14 volt is normal 14.2-14.33 is starting to reach the upper limits. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| grub Senior Member Joined: 27/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 169 |
I recently had bad starting with my work truck. Turned the key to hear just a clicking noise. Found the problem was corroded battery terminals. After cleaning the glass like glaze from the terminals (both battery and cable) the vehicle started with no problems. |
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| BjBlaster Regular Member  Joined: 04/04/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 55 |
It's usually the brushes in your starter motor that have had it when it does that. The clunk is the solenoid kicking in, but because of the high resistance of the brushes it won't go. Hitting the starter with a bit of wood usually frees up a bit of carbon and it goes next turn of the key.... then you know it's time to get her overhauled  Check out my projects here in: Bj's Shed |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Thanks for further advice. With 80,000 and lots of country driving the starter should (hope, hope!) still be OK. Am going to carry the six-month old battery to a battery shop to have it tested and then I shall clean the earth connection as advised. Next time i attach the 4 be 2 to the starter if it does not start! Thanks. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Friends, Just carried the batt to an auto place and had it tested with a Century test apparatus, which printed out the following for this Century batt. bought on 12/2009: Test Result: MARGINAL.Just Passed Tst Battery Rating: 18.3% (18% of life?) Initial Volts: 12.49 S. Loaded Volts: 9.78 (what does 'S.' mean?) Battery Ohms: 10.85 mOhm Either the battery was faulty ex factory or too long in the shop or the regulator allows overcharging or? After starting the alt. loaded the batt with a voltage of 14.33. I have to check how much the voltage is once the engine is warm as 14.33 may be too high. I have not read what is listed on the battery as the recommended max. charging V. If so, does anyone know if the electronics sport a trim pot to vary the charging voltage?? A member informed me the regulator may not be batt. temperature compensated?? Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi Dom, All batterys have a warranty so the first thing i would do is march back to where you bought the battery with the test results in hand and demand a replacement. You simply dont get if you dont ask. Most dealers put a date sticker on the battery to the date of purchase. I would not take no for an answer if they denighed you a replacement and ask to speak the the horses head as you are far from happy with the battery you have. Stir the pot and you will be suprised what you get. Then im an asshole like that when i get stuck with a bad product as i have the point of view i pay the same money for a bad one as i do for a good one and i dont care who i upset or what they do with the bad one as long its no me who is stuck with it. 99% of the time i get it replaced as there is laws that protect us in Australia from bad consumer goods. Give em Hell mate. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
[quote]Once it clicked twice and started on the third try. The clicking was not a starter motor click but a clicking, which came from an unknown place. Once it did not even have the strength to light up the LEDs on the dash.[/quote] This tells me that your starter is fine, and the battery is probably good enough to get by with. The LEDs tell the story. I suspect the starter high current system is fine (starter and solenoid), but there is a poor earth or poor connection to the low current side of the wiring. Maybe the plastic thinggy on the batt terminal is a fusable link or just a connector... and may be a suspect in the poor connection thing. If a LED on the dash won't light, things are dire circuit wise..... so batt terminals, earthing point, low current take off point would be the place to look. If it fails again, try shorting the start terminal on the starter relay to B+. This will bypass the cars low current circuits. If the starter leaps into life, it was not getting power to drive the relay (or the dash LEDS). If the starter is still silent, test for power at the starter (chassis and B+ side of the solenoid). If you don't value a certain screw driver, you can splat to ground from this terminal (don't mess up the thread though). No splat then work back to the battery (maybe using jumper leads from the terminals to ground and then to the starter B+. Measure the battery while you perform the splat again (if no splat). If no volts at battery, there may be a fracture in the internal interconnects of the battery. This can lead to intermittent performance.... unlikely but has happened before. The fact the leds barely lit, then the thing started tells me the batt is good enough, but there is a high resistance in the low power circuit side. If it were bad brushes/starter, or bad solenoid, the leds would have been unaffected..... so I think you can rest easy there. If it were an interlock problem (as with the Toyota story), the leds would not be dull/off. It will be simple though. If it does it again, check the headlights. If the leds won't light, I expect they wont either.... but the fact that it then starts..... well batteries don't recover on their own that well  .... but poor contacts do/can.
Best of luck with it ........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Oztules, Thanks for your extensive explanation. I will have to follow it to the letter once I get a (hopefully!) new and free battery. It appears the battery is shot. See my previous post with the Century test result. Battery tells me 14.5 is the max. charging current. I therefore do not have to worry about it showing 14.33V after starting and do not need to know if there is a trimpot in the electrickery to reduce the charging voltage. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| SSW_squall Senior Member Joined: 20/03/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 111 |
Hi Dom, I agree with downwind. If the battery is actually less than 12 months old (typical warranty period) and it's failed that documented load test then by all means drill the people(twits) who sold it to you. At least then you will have totally ruled that out as a possible source of problems If there is a faulty earth strap/connection, which it sounds like there could well be, then this could contribute to the charging voltage being unusually high. The extra voltage displaced by the high impedance ground connection will directly add to the sense voltage that the regulator thinks it's seeing. Just because the max voltage is 14.5, it doesn't mean it should be approaching this level during normal use. If the battery is good, no bad connections and the car(regulator) is warmed up then the charging voltage should be less than 14v, otherwise the battery will be overcharged, prematurely shortening it's life. Anyway don't worry about the charging voltage yet, i think it's safe to say it's a symptom not the cause... AB Einstein: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler |
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| SSW_squall Senior Member Joined: 20/03/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 111 |
As a sideshow, Last year i was dring our Pajero 4WD and i had the pleasure of the battery going flat WHILE i was driving: First the 4WD super select lights started flashing, but they sometimes do that anyway because the actuator on the front diff is abit old and tired. It was starting to get dark i flicked on the headlights, then i noticed the dash light seemed really dull. Hmm??? Then i looked across at the battery voltage meter, 11v??? What the?? Even if the scale is slightly less then scientific grade accuracy, it was definitly reading less then 12v. So i quickly turn lights back off. Next i noticed that oil pressure gauge was reading zero, soon after that the RPM counter dropped to zero as well. "Arr Houston, we have a problem..." At that point i thought it would be better not to be stuck in the middle of the main road, so i pulled off onto a side road and turned off the motor. Turned the key to try and start it and CLICK.....nothing! BOTHER! better ring the wife... Returned later on that night about 9:40, with an replacement alternator and by that time the sprinklers on the golf course i happened to be parked next to were in the process of saturating the 4WD with rather foul smelling bore water. GREAT!! Anyway about 5 minutes later the sprinklers shut off. Beacuse the spare alternator was a bosch one a direct replacement i stuffed around for about an hour bolting it to the motor which involved changing the pulley of the alternator from a 4 groove to a 5 groove to suit the main belt. And rigging up a charge light directly off the regulator, because the wiring harness plug was not realy acessible... After charging up the battery off the other car, finally it looked ready to go... At this point i should mention that the i knew the replacement alternator had slightly noisy bearings, because about 2 seconds after the motor started: SSSSSHHHHHHHRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEE!!!! As the fan belt streched like a rubber band in a way i wouldn't have possible over the now stationary alternator pulley. QUICK TURN IT OFF!! Because the time was now about 11PM and the night windless was so quiet you could hear a pin drop, the noise seemed all the more earth shattering. And i fully expected someone to come running or golf balls to start falling out of the trees. After pulling the now totally jammmed alternator out, it was going on for 12pm and it was time to call it a night. Next day i returned with another bosch alternator (this time borrowed from the tractor), just in time to watch the some guys out for their morning round of torture, sorry i mean golf. I mean it is only a game?? Even if you do only top the ball 5m off the tee, don't take it seriously just have the shot again, no ones watching... hehe After another 1/2 hour of mounting dodgification, sucess was mine and we were on our way.... Later at home after pulling the old alternator apart, i found the metal strip that connects the rectifier bridge to the connection bolt inside the back of the alternator was totally burnt out. Mention this to the wife and she said she did remember a strong electrical burning smell after driving the car which didn't seem to be there next time she drove it home. After which i suggested it might be good to tell me about any future strong electrical burning smells, however long or short lived they might be... (Actually the wifes normally pretty good with these kind of things, so i won't throw any stones inside THAT glasshouse) A small strip of copper, a nice glob of solder check the brushes and it's now all good. enjoy AB Einstein: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler |
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