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Forum Index : Solar : panel fitting requirements Victoria
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renewableMark Guru  Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
Hi guys, the CEC guides show ELV (under 120v) you don't need a disconnect at the panel, here 7.10 however the energysafe Vic site is a bit vaugue. here Currently I have 8 on a garage roof and 6 on the west tiled roof. 2 series, so 7 strings of 2. That wiring goes to two controllers in the shed with breakers/fuses before the controllers. The shed is next to the garage where the panels are fitted so maybe 7m run at the most. 1 am I required in Vic to fit switches at the panels? 2 If not required is it a good idea anyway? All my wiring is in conduit and have used double insulated 6mm solar wire. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
P5 on the enerygsafe vic site writes "Shall be installed adjacent to, or on, the electricity generation system so that a person operating the switch has a clear view of any person working on the electricity generation system;" Adjacent to, could the shed wall be close enough to be classed adjacent to? Or would it have to be on the roof? Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Just playing devils advocate, here but somewhere in those rules for grid connected systems it will also say you need the appropriate qualifications to install it. Just opened it, there it is plastered across the front page in big letters. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
Yes. but it states ELV does not require a licensed electrician. Partly my reason to go that way. Edit, I'm not going grid connected and plan to have a sparky fit a generator line and switch to the shed from the circuit board in the house (which will be permanently on "generator" feed after everything is ready. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1024 |
When I started off with solar less than 120v ELV there was no red tape ( In AU that I was aware of) if the solar panels were mounted on a carport shed or pole mounting, unlike the mounting on a house roof, however things change. there were some restriction in the US and would probably be adopted here. Have seen a few cattle shelters made from solar panels, no roof required, no BS either. 7.10.2 Isolators shall not be fixed on any portion of the panel. Seen a few of them like that up here. Even if the Isolator switch is required I doubt it would get used much, as a switch. Maybe someone better than me can make sense of the CEC guideline. Generator switch or change over switch is a good idea. Cheers Aaron Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Interesting topic. Can of worms here, but as you all know , this forum is full of diy,ers. We are not here trying to hurt anybody or break the law ,we are just handy type chaps happily playing around in our backsheds. Safety is allways on my mind , having done heaps of safety courses while working in the Telecom industry, so don,t start putting me down ,please. This topic could be a real help for guys installing panels and wanting to know the finer points , very much like the questions asked above. I'd like to have a section devoted to ,lets say, "workshop and backyard questions" which we could reference if we were not 100% sure of how to do something . A very Happy ,Safe, and constructive new year to all . Bruce Bushboy |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
As far as I know the isolator at the panels is for things like fire so that they can keep any risk to the smallest area possible. If the sun is shining through you cannot actually turn off the panels. However on the local TV news there have been a couple instances of fires at the panels on the roof. Could that have been caused by a faulty breaker? There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
scratching my head as to "what or how would a "Panel" burn? . yes, the disconnect is mainly for the firies to turn the panels off-well thats what the "experts" tell us. the power linies that have been here allways turn off at the switchboard and I've seen them remove the pole fuses as an added precaution. back to your post, a more likely possibility would be a loose joint ,causing heat , then fire in the insulation , dunno , just guessing. I'd reckon I'd position any switch where you,your wife or any helper would be able to very easily switch it without climbing ladders ,Etc.. but ,I'm not licenced,so what would I know?. the retired grumpy old man Bruce Bushboy |
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| Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1024 |
OK now I can see why that isolator could be used on the house roof (in case of fire), I guess that would make it useless on a pole mount structure Though. Looks like I should cover the solar panel junction box at the top of my pole mount setup, only thing that could cause trouble there for me is a large green tree frog could short across it. I have all switches and breakers easily accessible.  Just remembered what could cause a solar panel fire, bought some second hand panels APS, some of them had scorch marks in the plastic under the cell. They were in a GTI arraignment, now setup under 120v those don't get hot anymore. Cheers Aaron Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
water mate, thats the killer --- water and DC power -magic to watch the green oxide gunk growing ,anywhere there is a slight passage for water and current to flow ,then it starts eating into the copper and brass around it. Had a 16mm square twin feeder from my solar panels to my control panel --one day ,no power/current flow to panel .. after pulling out the cables from the inderground conduit , soaked in water , I found the corrosion-allmost completly eaten through .now thats a fairly big cable ,16mm. So Aaron ,forget them Froggies, it,s the dc that lurks under that junction box cover that should worry you. Bruce Bushboy |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
Unfortunately for you bruce, You and I think a LOT alike. I have bought used panels with the switch still attached to the side of the panel. Probably something they did before some clown polishing a seat with their arse and wanting to justify their job decided it wasn't safe any more. have to mount it NEXT to the panel on the roof now in a way that adds hours and $$ to the installers Chargeable time. If I want to disconnect my panels I have a breaker on every String in the solar Sub box where all the other fuses are on the ground at the front of the shed. Anyone here can easily turn it off. Can be turned off at the meter box on the house as well. No one here other than me is going to get up on a ladder to get to the roof to shut it down even if they could carry and set the ladder up in the first place. Why the fk they would be climbing on a roof where something as burning would also take a stretch of the imagination. If the idea is to shut the panels off if they are burning, then that just makes the idea even more stupid in my book. As for your " what is to burn" question.... A few years back I was going around various swimming centres doing work. I went to one large council run pool and was told I'd have to do an induction/ Fire safety course before I was allowed to work there. Ok. The woman whom took me through it was all deadly serious and took me out into the indoor centre to show me around. There is literally 3 Million litres of water in there, concrete pathways, a steel frame holding up the metal roof 60 Ft above it all, glass walls and aluminum benches. I'm standing there listening to her pointing out where the fire hoses are thinking " My mate that does work here has set this up as a gee up for sure". She asks me what fire dangers I could see in the place. I said well I can see a lot of little spawns of satin running round here screaming, maybe some of them could self combust? The look and reply I got along with the dressing down put any thoughts out of my head she was not 100% serious. I got asked the question again with the reminder that if I did not adequately complete the induction I would not be allowed to work there. I looked around and said well maybe those piles of wet soggy towels on the benches could Burn thinking the pool water turning to wine would probably be a better bet. She seemed excited at the answer and also pointed out the peoples belongings. I'm thinking yeah, because you hear of bags and people belongings bursting into flames every day right? it's always in the papers and it's a big social problem that millions are being spent on to stamp it out!  She's going on and I say what about the plant room? knowing there are big motors in there along with high current electrical cables and switchgear. I'm told oh, no, you never go in there under any circumstances. I say what if there is a fire? Nope, your job as a contractor and representative of the centre is to assist getting everyone out to the emergency assembly area. The plant room has a very strong and fire resistant door anyway so no fire in there can get out here. She went on with a lecture about saving people and getting everyone out and leaving the authourities to fight the fire. I'm thinking then WTF have you just walked me round the entire effing place pointing out each and every damn fire hose if I'm not supposed to fight any magical fire that was fueled buy water, concrete or metal? Oh yeah, the blazing inferno that is started by the wet towels and kids school bags. Hopefully I could get to the canteen to get some marshmallows before the thing went out! Next I'm taken to the outdoor pool and the grandstand. Metal frame, roof, concrete floor and aluminum benches. She says what can you see as a fire danger there. Honesty and good sense over came any PC answer and I said absoloutley nothing. I said you could not burn that down unless you got a front end loader full of wet towels and kids school bags and filled the thing after putting 1000L of fuel on it. She says yeah, that's not much of a worry but if there was any fire you have to get them out. She said where would you take them? I said right to that grassed area where it would be well away and nothing to burn. Nope, that's grass, what if that catches fire. It's green as can be, if that catches fire my arse will have turned to Gold an hour before. Take them out the front to the assembly area. But the only way is through that narrow passage way between the 2 buildings where as here they are well away, there is a set of gates they can exit in the opposite direction outside the ground themselves and would not be going past any emergency services trying to get to this mythical fire. AAAGGGHHHH!!!! Yeah, safety regulations. You can stick them. I'll employ my own safety considerations thanks... like putting the breaker where it can be got to by anyone without having to find a ladder and climb on a roof where going towards and close to something that was on fire. For any electrical work I have to do, I'll simply do as I always do and shut down the inverter then disconnect one of the connectors making the string open circuit. I have looked on forums and sites to do with panel installations and it's clear there is gross ambiguity and a hypocrisy in the legislation. Even the licenced and experienced guys don't fully understand it and most dangerous of all, because it is so convoluted and conflicted, there is no real way to make a given installation conform with all the rules as they are. My DIY set is totally unapproved not would pass approval but I'll guarantee in the real world it's safer in practicality than the so called licensed installs. It's a nice sunny day, My panels are probably kicking out a good 5KW+ so I think I'll go see how much power I'm making and check the cooling fan is running to keep the inverter temps down. Don't like how hot they run so the 50 or so Watts for the fan I think is a good investment and probably repaid by keeping the inverters cooler and not having them back off to keep their temps down. |
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Ralph2k6 Senior Member  Joined: 24/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 129 |
Good rant, George, I'll second that. Another great example is our OHS at work, sit on damn office chair all day. Worries more about supplies like milk and coffee being used up, rather than people walking under hoists being operated, or machinery that has pinch points with nil protection!! Ralph |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
Yeah good rant George! Just got back from a few days away being traumatized by the family..... jeez need a holiday myself now to get over it! Was kind of looking forward to going back to work after that I rang energysafe Vic, they told me on the wall for ELV was fine and it didn't need switches on the panels. The condescending bugger was warning me about how dangerous high amp dc was, my reply was yes mate, that's how welders work and they melt metal together, so yeah I realize that. Then he quizzed me on what ELV was and what a disconnect was and a few other things, I guess he didn't want me to fry myself but wasn't the most tactful person. So bottom line on the wall is fine for ELV "under current legislation in Vic" That's good I don't need to change anything. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
BTW the reason for not attaching the switch on the panel isn't because of safety, it's because the panel manufacturers refuse ANY warranty claim if any drill holes are done on their panels. So the gov want the whole install (being gov't funded) to be under warranty, so the manufacturers' guidelines are incorporated into the gov't guidelines. Not about safety at in that case, just about bang for buck and keeping it under warranty. However us getting used panels don't give two stuffs about warranty, BUT we have to go by the guidelines to do the install legal. Ridiculous, but hey you can't fight city hall. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
Air con fella came today, he also does solar fitting. He looked at my current setup and I got talking to him about going off grid, he reckons even if you go off grid you still need a meter at the house or the house is deemed uninhabitable, so you still have to pay the service charge per quarter, I think it's about $100 or so. Is that bloody right? Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Sounds ridiculous, if that is actually the case and it went to court they would have to prove it is uninhabitable. We live mostly off-grid, still have a grid connection but have made arrangements to be able to disconnect. Will be moving in a while to a bush block where the grid is not an option. With recent storms, all the neighbours have been in the dark once for 24 hours and in May for 72 hours. Guess whos house still had lights, refrigeration etc and because around here we live off tank water the people relying on the grid had no water. They could not flush the toilet, shower, wash the dishes and so on, so which is uninhabitable? There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
Nope DEAD wrong! Australian Consumer law was amended a few years back to make it illegal to charge for a product or service you are not using, don't have connected, do not agree too etc. This was brought about in significant part by the water authorities who would charge people for water rates such as farms, even if the water/ sewage was not connected. Unfortunately they tried it on with a Pitt st. farmer who just happened to be a big time lawyer and tried to hit him him with a bill around 10K for a property that didn't have a house, crop or livestock on it and certainly had no water or sewage connection. It simply ran along the road in front of the property. Instead of taking on the water co, he took on the federal Gubbermint and had the law amended and then threw that at the water co so they didn't have to take him on, they would have to take the fed Gubbermint to court to change the law. Not going to happen. There have since been a lot of reports that water utilities are still trying to charge people as they did before and will continue to do so unless you tell them to shove it. they make extra out of the people that don't know they don't have to pay or might have looked into it 20 years ago and don't know the law has changed. Anyone like trade practices commission etc questions them after a complaint, they simply say sorry, made a mistake and carry on getting money from those who do pay. I recently found they can't, without an inordinate amount of trouble, kick you out of your home even if it's not approved or services aren't connected. Scumbag neighbors built a house that was completely different to the plans submitted, moved in without approval and didn't have gas for cooking or water heating connected. Complained bitterly to Council who explained if they had power and water/ sewage, it was almost impossible to get them out. Even lack of hot water was not a problem because they could say they took cold showers or boiled the kettle and put it in the bath etc. They will only eject you if there is a clear health risk to you or the surrounding properties. What other neighbour and I DID get them hit hard for, 3 times, was there was never any toilet facilities on site. That was a health violation as there were 20 guys on site a lot of days and where were they all going? Netted the council $15K all up but still the cheap mongeral owner never put in a sh*tter till the health dept came along and threatened to close the site or hit them with a $250K fine. Then they came too it away after a month because the guy wasn't paying for the weekly service fee. In the scumbags case, although the water was not metered because their plumbing was not up to standard, the water board could not disconnect an occupied premises. Neighbor and I were onto them enough as well. They had sewage, again without approval, connected and power ( though a box that had 10 Violations) but all that couldn't get them removed till the place was certified. As far as power goes, the meter belongs to the power co but it's on your property and you have to give permission for it to be there. having it on your property is a condition of them supplying you power. No power, no need for it to be there and they cannot charge you for a product you are not being supplied and using. I have heard of Councils having a mandate that you must have power and town water connected where available but that's BS too. A council or any other entity cannot over ride the law of the land. Typical example is Euthanasia. You can give a doctor permission to end your life and sign documents and have 100 witnesses but it's still Illegal according to the law of the country and your permission can't over ride that. Many of these organisations will BS you all day long and untill you stand up to them and say get stuffed, I know you are wrong, they will try to put it over you. And of course a lot of people have an adamant belief in old wives tales. :0) |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
ergon energy and offgrid Even though they try and talk you out of it, they admit you can often do it (some housing estates where you have covenants etc may be a different story) When I was looking to buy my first house I nearly bought into a place- really nice houses, really cheap for the area- until I talked to one guy who was just putting his new house on the market.... No external timber on houses or fences, no backyard sheds, no pets, no sat dishes, no cars parked in driveways or on street overnight, no boats or trailers in back yards(or front lol), no lights or sound visible or audible at any fenceline after certain times- the list just went on and on And they would fine you if you didnt obey them (I didnt even think that was legal, but apparently it was if you signed the covenant when you bought the place) I walked away real quick... |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
Yep, Just moved here in August and fond the same BS when we were looking. There was a real nice place down the road that was in an estate the same. 1 acre block that basically you couldn't do anything with except have the house on it. Only 1 external building allowed and an external building was considered a Dog kennel, pool pump enclosure etc. Went tot he council and saw a brilliantly helpful young town planner who said we don't give a rats about anything they say as long as you follow our ruled and you can build a shed 100m2 footprint and up to 5m High there. Ripper! Then he warned after looking at the covenant, the way this is written, the other people in the estate are joint tenants. If one has an issue, they could all sue you basically for loss of amenity. I said is that likley? He said has happened. He looked and said hang on a minute. Came back and said the people that originally owned all the land before it as sub divided still live in the next street. If they went to the trouble to have all this crap drawn up, you can bet that 20 years later they are even more pedantic and would make trouble the minute they saw a builders truck or heard a nail gun. Guy pointed out a lot of other things as well we missed which went down to what you could plant in the gardens and as said, only 1 REGISTERED van, boat or trailer allowed anywhere on the property and so it went down to a list of approved colours you could paint the place or have your roof or guttering. I could see me having a major sh*t fight before we even got moved in so we passed. For once I was thankful the place went for a stupid high price so that put any regrets out of our head. I'm out in the rural area of Sydney and they are throwing up estates here all around. More cows and horses in paddocks that go as far as the eye can see but they are putting 100's of houses on 318M2 blocks. It's criminal! You go through these future slums and feel claustrophobic. Cars parked on the opposite sides of the road mean there is barely enough room for a car to squeeze down the middle. People park cars in front of their garages and the front yard is so short even little girls cars overhang onto the foot path. The places are all 4 and 5 bedroom Double story with NO back yard. Who buys a new home out of the city for the lower price and what do they do with it? A young couple that fill it with Kids. When those kids all start driving in 15-20 years, there are going to be stabbings over car parking. There is NO public transport and never will be because these places are like rabbit warrens and there is no railway and to get anywhere takes hours to go into the main town without a car. They will be saying in years to come how all the kids in these places have no social skills, can't problem solve or do anything with their hands and they are addicted to computer games. It's a foregone conclusion because there are no yards for them to play in and they sure as hell can't play in the street so what else will they be able to do apart from sit in front of a screen or TV? There should be minimum block sizes set out here of 600M2 at least. The way they are going they are creating huge social problem 20 years down the track but everyone responsible is making money now and that will be a mess someone else has to deal with when the current mongerals who engineered the trouble have long cleared out. Guy next door here took a real interest in me putting my panels on the shed roof when I did it. Saw him a week later and he told me I inspired him to look at adding to his system and he got another 4 Kw added on to give him 6 and it was something he should have done a while back but seeing me do mine got him motivated. |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Why complain about people going on those small blocks, it leaves more room for others like us who want more space to what we like. I deal with this stuff all the time as I am a Real Estate Agent, there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with 50 sq m of backyard. There are others that are happy in units, either of these options would drive me insane. If everybody wanted a 5-acre block you would be driving through suburbia for hours to go anywhere. Councils etc like everybody jammed in like sardines too because it means less infrastructure cost, our local council has virtually stopped all rural subdivision now and you can not end up with a rural block less than 100Ha, there are no 200+ Ha blocks around here to cut up like that. If there is a covenant on a property we have to attach it the contract for the buyer and they sign it, if not I would get sued for huge amounts of money when the new owner has issues. Never come across any here that are as severe as you mention, one thing they do is group all the people with the same attitude together. Then they can all have their tiled roof brick venereal homes with 2 car garages all lined up and do what makes them happy. Others who like to play around with solar panels and stuff like us who are in a minority can go elsewhere and do our own thing. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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