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Forum Index : Electronics : Batteries
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kando Newbie  Joined: 27/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 16 |
G'day, I'm new to generating my own power and this forum, so please excuse me when I make mistakes. I find things pretty confusing...Pumps and other electrical gear, like solar panels and wind generators are rated in xxWatts, while batteries are ratted at xxAH! I guess it's like anything else in life, it's confusing and hard when you don't know how but...Once you learn...It becomes easy/er...I hope 
Anyway, I have a question, how many 12v x 100AH deep cycle batteries would I need to drive three pumps, 24/7, with the a total power rating of 600W? Second question, would a solar panel of 200W and a wind generator of 300-400W maximum, be enough to keep the number of batteries I need, up to scratch? I thank you in advance for your advice. Bill Australia, You can do anything...With the "right" advice |
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Tinker Guru  Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Hi Bill, It will get easier if you persevere reading every post on this forum
With deep cycle (and basically all lead acid batteries) if you use more than 20% of their total capacity repeatedly before recharging them you do shorten their life considerably. So, for your proposed 100Ah batteries consider each only delivers 20Ah before it should be recharged. Solar recharging only happens at daylight hours, wind could blow anytime but is not as reliable as solar at my location - don't know how it would perform at your place. I think your proposed power use is a bit high for a reasonable (panels/ wind) set up, but if you have heaps of funds available.... Q2: no, IMO. For example, I have 420W of solar panel on a tracker to get the most of available sunshine. There is a 500Ah, 24V battery bank being charged by them. I can expect about 3Kwh of electicity over a 24 hour period to feed my inverter which powers part of my house *if* the sun shines all day. On overcast days the available power drops considerable. You are looking at 3.5 times that power requirement from your pumps. Have fun doing some more calculating but don't be too disappointed if it turns out expensive. Klaus |
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| kando Newbie Joined: 27/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 16 |
G'day Klaus, Thank you for your advice, I had been told that I could not use solar to power this hoby set-up...Now I know why...Set-up cost!  Oh well, I'll have to see what I can do with what gear I have at hand 
I guess I could start with driving one pump (a 200W pump) from the battery bank/solar panel/wind generator I have in my workshop. That pump will, I believe, run for 15 minutes every three hours but it could be 15 minutes every two hours...I'll need to set everything up and test for the timing, then as cash permits, I can add items to the system. My home faces North and I have six solar panels, 1.5KWs, on the roof, this little Aquaponic project is seperate but will also face North so the 200W panel will be in full sun all day long...apart from the days of cloud cover, I bought the wind generator to help with those days, I also have a little petrol generator. Looks like I haave lots more reading to do
Something I forgot to ask Klaus, why is it better to use 24v over a 12V battery bank and setting wind generator and solar panels for 24V instead of 12V? Thanks again for your advice Klaus, Bill Corio, Vic', 3214 You can do anything...With the "right" advice |
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powerednut Senior Member  Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
Hi Bill, you might want to have a read of this site: http://www.solaronline.com.au/solar_system_basics which should give you an idea of how to figure out how many panels you need to operate your load. Working through its calcs and the figures you'll probably find you get fairly close with your 200Watt panel and 3 12V 100Ah batteries (based on 15 minutes every 2 hours), but it'll depend on the peak sun hours in your location. The problem is "close" is going to rely on everything working properly and with nothing holding the system back (like thin power cables). The wind turbine will certainly help, as long as you get a decent amount of wind at your site. |
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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Bill, I assume the 3 pumps total 600W, and not 3 pumps with a 600W power rating each. re Q1. The load is approx 15kWh/day. On the worse day, with no solar, and no wind available, the battery would need to supply all of the load, and suffer only a max of 40% DOD. One 100Ah @ 12V battery represents approx 1.2kWh if fully depleted at a 100h rate. You will need the 24h rate, so this will be approx 0.8kWh. You should only deplete these to approx 60% of max capacity. This amounts to approx 45 x 12V 100Ah batteries. Solar panels and windmills will reduce the amount of DOD the batteries will be subjected to, but you still need to supply the load on a day where there is little sun and no wind. A 1kW solar system can supply an average 2kWh/day in winter and 5kWh/day in summer. This is location dependent. Take the winter, as worse case. You will need approx 7kW of solar panels. A windmill is approx 1/10 the kWh power production of solar panels for the same installed capacity, for an average wind location. I would not consider a windmill unless windspeed distribution data proved it viable. If you had 2 successive days without sun, then the battery would be depleted to a level that would be difficult to recover without a backup fuel genset. Re Q2. The required solar panel is about 7kW, so 200W is completely inadequate. PS: It is extremely difficult to run consistant high power loading from an only RE setup. I have seen RE homes with under 10kWh max daily loading with 5kW of solar, and 2.5kW windmill run out of battery capacity in winter, with 1300Ah 48V battery [approx 30kWh of usable power available]. Periods of cloud and rain will make most RE systems without an autostarting backup genset run out of stored power. It is extremely difficult to recharge a depleted battery from Solar, during these cloudy periods. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| kando Newbie Joined: 27/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 16 |
Hello PN and Gordon, Thanks for the link PN, it makes some good reading. I have a lot to learn about generating my own power but I'll get there in the end
Yes Gordon, the three pumps, two water pumps, one air pump, in total rate 570W. I evened the watts out to 600W to be on the safe side. I have six, 100AH 12V batteries, two 12V 1200W 2400W max inverters, one 300-400W Max 12/24V wind generator, one 12V 200W solar panel and one 12/24V wind/solar combo controler that I bought with the wind generator from the WG supplier. I also have one 3000W generator. I'll add more batteries, another 200W solar panel and perhaps another wind generator...When I get some money together but for now, I'll have to go with what I have. Thanks again for your advice, Bill You can do anything...With the "right" advice |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi Bill, I had a lot to do with hydroponics in past years and can not help wondering why you have such hungry pumps power wise and why the need for such big equipment. You must have market gardens or a very poor design. There is many techniques that can be used in hydroponics and it would appear you have picked a less desired method for a remote location system. Most systems work on a very low fluid head and the pumps used is often far over rated as the average pump design is for a greater head capacity and hence the power consumption needed for this. What is the head requirements of your system and what flow rates do you expect to need. The use of DC pumps might be a better option as it will not require the inverters and will then reduce to losses inccured with inverters. Perhaps you can tell us more about your operation so better advice can be offered to maximize your resources. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Hi Bill, you got plenty of food for thought in the above replies. Regarding to your question, 24V battery bank means half the amps for the same power. Half the amps mean cheaper cable and less cable losses. 12V is good for smallish systems. 24V is better but battery bank increases means two extra (12V) batteries required each time. 48V is better still, especially if long cable runs are required. But it means an extra 4 batteries for every bank size increase. My system is a compromise, 24V panels are readily available as are 24V inverters and MPPT units. The open circuit (~50V) of 24V panels is not too high for my MPPT, something that needs consideration if going for a 48V system. Klaus |
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| kando Newbie Joined: 27/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 16 |
G'day Pete, No mate, I do not have a market garden  I need the 6000L, 190W pump for the cascading spillway I'm placing in the feature wall. The spillway needs a min 5500LPH with height max 900mm. The water for the spillway comes from my inground fishpond (Goldfish) via the 6000LPH pump, enters a Hozelock 9000UVC filter/UV disinfection unit, exits the filter then goes to the cascading spillway and back to the pond. I am a member of aquaponics.net.au/forum/ and have a thread on the forum, with pictures of what I'm doing, here's the link:
I planned on using the 7000LPH pump to flood my two indoor fishtanks (2 x 1000L IBCs) This pump will run for 15 minutes every three hours. I need a pump that will lift the water 1.5 meters over a four metre run, from my infround pond to my fishtanks and flod my two indoor fishtanks, the fishtanks will overflow and flod my greengouse growbeds, which will be lower than the two indoor fishtanks. The water will drain from the growbeds back to the pond. I will also run a 300 litres pr minute (180W) air pump into the two 1,000L indoor fishtanks, to airate the water for Trout and Perch. (One species in each tank) The filtered/UV treated water via the spillway will airate the water in my inground pond. The head requirement for the pump that feeds the indoor fishtanks and growbeds is 1.5 metres over a four metre run via a 1" pipe. I have searched for 12V pumps of a similar size to the 240V pumps I have but can find nothing...Unless I take-out a mortage to pay for similar sized 12V pumps
There you have it, that's what I'm working on so I had better get out and do some work while the rain's off
Thanks for your advice, it is much apprecated. Bill Australia You can do anything...With the "right" advice |
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| powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
might be worth looking for some cheap panels on ebay. I don't know what the prices are like these days but they used to be about 60-70% of the standard retail price for panels. BTW the "200W panel is close" statement was to run 1 pump... not all 3. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Bill Might be worthwhile to look at some 24 volt bilge pumps as the ones I got on ebay cost $20 and are still going after 12 months. They pump about 500 gallons an hour at 3 foot head and draw just over 1 amp about 30 watts on 24 volt. There are bigger ones available but these are big enough to do our setup of 50000 gallons. I run them direct off a load panel 200 watt 8 amp without battery, when the sun shines they pump. I have run 6 off the one panel and 4 little fountain pumps, the only thing needed is a low voltage cut out at 22 volts so they don't burn out trying to run on low voltage. It will work for 8 hours a day in summer and 5 hours in winter without a battery. The load panel doesn't charge battery because its max output voltage is 26 volts but it puts out more amps. For aeration I use 4 little water fountain pumps, and where the water is going back into the pond it is spread over a flat surface into a mini waterfall about 2 foot high. For backup airation I have a 90 watt air pump, it runs off the normal solar system. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi Bill, That explains a lot and gives a better picture to the operation. I am not sure about the green house grow bed flooding as i can see many problems with contamination from the green house with lots of other mineral elements. I gather you would like to use the greenhouse as a nitrate scrubber but would think it could cause other toxic problems. Secondly plants need a balanced nutrient mix to grow well and this is not good for your fish. It sounds like a wonderful operation you have. Have you looked at "sump pumps" as i used one for years and they give high flow for low head and mine was only 90 watts, (cheap too) Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Bill, The power requirements you have given, sound like nameplate spec data. Have you measured the power consumption of each pump? You have the grid connected? Probably cheaper to still run from it than to set up a battery. Do you have power utility supply problems? A backup aeration may be all that is needed in a power failure. I think the power requirements you have given are an overestimate. An equivalent 1hp pump running continuously is a serious amount of load. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| kando Newbie Joined: 27/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 16 |
G'day PN, I can buy 12V x 200W solar panels for $530AU, (I think the AU dollar is on par, or close, with US dollar) but I'm out of cash mate  So adding more SPs, plus another wind generator will have to wait...For now!
As I said in one of my earlier posts, I have a 1.5KW solar set-up on my home, I could have added more panels to the home system and run everything from that but...As we "can't trust" the power companies "not" to juggle prices and buy-back power prices, so that we house-holders with solar/grid power, end-up paying more for our used power...I thought I would set-up this pond/greenhouse/AP system off grid...That's why I bought the batteries, solar panel and wind generator...To have my own little off the grid power plant. I believe I can run the 200W pump of one 100AH battery and the 200W solar panel because that pump runs for 15 minutes every three hours. As I have the wind generator and 6 100AH batteries, I thought I "may" be able to run the three pumps using all the batteries/solar panel and wind gen'...Oh well...Down the track I will add more gear but for now...I'll do what I can with what I have
G'day Bob, Thanks for your ideas mate, they are most welcome. My outdoor pond holds 3,500L of water and faces North, so it's in full sun all day long. I "need" to put all the water through the Hozelock 9000UVC filter twice every hour to keep the water clean and clear. The pump and filter were sized on the size of my pond and the waterfall, and the Hozelock has been doing a great job for quite a few years...Till I became ill, then the pump was shut down and everything was let go to hell in a handcart! Plants were wrecking the waterfall and taking over the pond...Big time! So, now that I'm feeling better, I decided to have a major backyard and pond clean-up. I decided to get rid of the waterfall and install a feature wall, with a 600mm cascading spillway (I know the wife will love it when it's finished) Lucky for me, the 600LPH pump I have is just right for the spillway to operate as it's meant to, so, if the rain stays away for a day or two, I'll finish the wall and spillway and that part of my backyard reno' will be over...Then it's on to stage two
Cheers Bob, Bill G'day Pete, Thanks for your reply, did you have a look at the AP forum? If you're interested in AP, it's full of good advice. The greenhouse/shadehouse will be a greenhouse in winter and a shadehouse in summer...The growbeds, filled with small 1/4"-1" lava-rocks act as filters, the plants receive all requirements from the fish-waste, that is why I'm taking water direct from the fishpond (no filtration) straight to my two 1,000L indoor fishtanks (all the pond water will be filtered and airated via the 6,000LPH pump, the Hozelock 9000UVC filter and the 600mm cascading spillway) The indoor fishtanks (two 1,000L IBCs) will be filled to overflow for 15 minutes, by the 7,000LPH pump, the overflow from both tanks will be set-up as a syphon, to syphon the fish-waste and water from the bottom of the tanks out to the growbeds. I had not given sump-pumps a second thought but...I have now but from what I have seen, suitable sump-pumps use as much power as the pumps I have.
One sump-pump I'm looking at is rated at: Power (kW): 0.4 Amps (A): 2.2 I believe that is around the same power of the pumps I have but...I could well be wrong! Another sump-pump I'm lookg at is rated at: Max. Flow: 4000Lph Max. Head: 4.0m Wattage: 100W This pump could suit my needs and I can buy two of these 4000LPH pumps (New) for $250AU. A third sump-pump is rated at: Amps 1.0 Phase 1 0.1 KW It pumps 80LPM/4800LPH max and has a 6m head, so this Davey sump-pump would also suit my needs for one job. Why can't pump manufactures mark their pumps in Watts, that way silly old buggers...Like me, could better understand
This has been a long post so I'll shove-off and see if I can get some work done...Between rain squals
Bill You can do anything...With the "right" advice |
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| kando Newbie Joined: 27/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 16 |
G'day Gordon, The specs, I did get them off the pumps name plates and manuals. No, I have not measured the power consumption. I do have a meter but I can not remember how to set it up...When I suffered a second major heart attack, the blood supply to my brain was cut-off for a time, and that has efected my memory. The docs say it "may" improve with time but...Don't bet on it. As for running my backyard project from the grid...Yes, I could do that but I don't trust the power companies. They have already upped the cost of electricity since I had the solar put on our home. Now I feel that I have been ripped-off by the government and the power company. I think, at my age, I've wasted my $5800AU puting solar power on our home. Oh well, that's now water under the bridge and time will tell. Cheers, Bill You can do anything...With the "right" advice |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Bill,, You paid $5800 for a 1.5 Kw system ?? My 1Kw cost $355.. I wonder ?? Bruce Bushboy |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi Bill, There is no such thing as "silly old buggers" just less informed old buggers
To work out the watts is very easy you just times the amps by the volts, so 0.4 amp X 240 volt = 96 watts. I think you will find as the rated head is reduced the flow rate will increase, and the watts also might reduce some. As for "Oh well, that's now water under the bridge and time will tell." i didnt recall seeing a bridge in your photos
The stainless sump pumps are very good for large pond pumps, and think it was one called "Orange pumps" that we use to use in many comercial water features, that had good reliability and a reasonable price. (some years back now) Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| kando Newbie Joined: 27/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 16 |
G'day Bruce, My 1.5KW solar system was installed by Clear Solar on the 25/7/09 (or there about) It was inspected and passed on the 7/8/09. I have a receipt showing I paid $6,361.65 + Tax $636.35 Total Paid: $7,000! I got $1,000 back when the system was up and running. Before the system was installed, I also paid $800 to have our power distribuation board replaced. That $800 bucks brought the total I paid for the solar system to $7,800AU Total! But then I got $1,000 back. So I paid $6800 in total. I paid extra for having a German made Sonny Boy External Solar/Grid Inverter (Clear Solar wanted to install a internal inverter) So there you have it and "I do" have all the receipts to prove my payments. I can not understand how you could have a 1KW solar system put on for $355! Unless you had already bought all the gear and the $355 was for installation only
If I'm right, that would be 5 x 200W solar panels! The cheapest 200W solar panels I've found anywhere were on eBay and they cost $530 each...I bought one for my backyard set-up. The solar panels are of no use on their own, you need the rest of the required gear to generate electricity but...If you had a 1KW working solar system installed on your home for $355...Then good luck to you...Please order one for me and the company can install it first thing tomorrow morning I'll pay them just as soon as the work is compleeted.
Cheers Bruce Bill G'day Pete, I wouldn't bet on me "not" being a silly old bugger! Bruce got a 1KW solar system for $355, so I guess he's the smart one, hell Pete, the 6 metre of slate for my wall cost me almost three times as much as Bruce paid for a 1KW solar system! Anyway, I've found a 4000LPH sump-pump with a power rating of 100W, it's listed on on eBay.com.au Please let me know what you think of this pump if you have time to have a look at it. The only Orange Pumps I could find were much to big for my use, the smallest one was rate'ed at 375W. Cheers Pete
Bill You can do anything...With the "right" advice |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi Bill, There is not a lot of info on the pump you gave the link to, but look as though it should be suitable. It is not an over expensive pump but still a few dollars to out lay, the bright side is, its only half the power consumption of the other pump you intend to use. In total for 3 pumps, a 300 watt saving is not to be sneezed at when dealing with a RE system. Sump pumps are more efficient then above ground pumps as they don't need to lift the water, and it is far more effective to push water up hill than to suck water up hill. When dealing with open impeller pumps by chocking the discharge of the pump back it will reduce the power needed to drive the pump, so if you can restrict the flow some it will also reduce the power consumption, as it removes some of the load off the motor. For aeration when the pump is running have you considered using a venturi to add air to the water, it can create some noise though. As for water scrubber plants i understand that a reed bed is the best plant for water scrubbing (natures own) but they can become out of control easy and tend to take over. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Bill Just a suggestion on your scrubber plants, we used water chestnuts in a shallow pond planted under 50 mm cor matting that they grow up through, and to harvest you roll up the matting, the more nutrient the more chestnuts, and they are worth a bit as well. Good in soups and salads and stir fry. A pan about 8 inches deep is OK. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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