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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Standardization Please .. ?
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| Volhout Guru  Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4222 |
All, Peter has created a very versatile platform around the RP2040 and RP2350 (pico) chips. In the early days of PicoMite, life was pretty simple. There was a standard pinning of the chip that was supported. But since then, more and more hardware configurations became supported (audio DAC's, variable VGA pinout, etc..) And people started playing with game controllers, and USB keyboards. In summary, we have 20-50 more or less active members in the Pico "Community" that use 20-50 different hardware platforms. Appart from the fact that it costs a lot of time to debug all these platforms with each release of MMBasic (an not all members have time to actively go through test runs with each MMBasic release), it is also a nightmare to make software that others can use. I personally find this a roadblock with the games I have worked on. Should the game be controlled by PS2 keyboard ? Console ? USB keyboard ? NES controller ? SNES controller ? Nunchuck ? WII classic controller ? PS3 controller ? PS4 controller ? Game*Mite keys ? And similar (near future, or present) with the multitude of graphics modes on the RP2350 and the PSRAM yes or no. I know it is far too late to make this call, but I would appreciate a narrowing down in all the options. Because I am not motivated to implement all possible variants (in programs) for maximum 1 user of each variant. Why did to C64 build up such a huge collection of games: IT DID NOT CHANGE OVER 15 YEARS. You could write code for the base platform, and everyone could run it. As long as you kept to the basic machine. I suggest we define the "2350 platform" and stick with it. If that platform is the OLIMEX, fine. Then that is what it is. Volhout Edited 2024-09-13 18:02 by Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4222 |
Note that I have spend all my free time last 3 weeks testing MMBasic 6.0.0 beta ON THE RP2040 VGA platform. I did not even start with testing the USB VGA version. If we do not limit the number of platforms, MMBasic releases will go out UN-TESTED. And that will, long term, be bad for the acceptance of MMBasic. Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6778 |
There are too many options for controllers: USB (but not all systems have it) USB keyboard (can be unresponsive but easy to program. Not all systems have USB) PS2 Keyboard (responsive but clumsy but easy to program. Not all systems have PS2) I2C (good system but controllers tend to have proprietary connectors) NES/SNES (easy to implement. Cheap controllers can be very poor, good ones difficult to find. No standard connector and all proprietary) Please can we standardise on I2C? It's cheap with good support in MMBasic and can do just about anything. The Olimex has it too. So does the Micromite. :) I attempted a "standard" I2C controller ages ago but got no takers and I'm not expecting any now. The main problem is in getting a suitable case and buttons that people will accept, I think. It's not feasible to have one that isn't 3D printed. The WII Classic is close to perfect in many ways but is hopelessly obsolete now (as is all the WII system). PicoGAME attempted to give some sort of a standard but used too many GPIO pins. I would now go for a system where joysticks had to contain, or have an adapter that contained, an I2C converter chip of some sort. Don't use 5 GPIO pins when 2 will do more. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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Turbo46 Guru Joined: 24/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1611 |
Amen. Bill Keep safe. Live long and prosper. |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4222 |
@Mick, With I2C you mean support of the WII classic controller ? Or are you referring the a NES controller with I2C interface (that is not sold by Aliexpress). Anyway, I think standardization can be achieved when we offer a solution. I.e. an interface from OLIMEX (if that is the platform) to the WII controller that everybody simply can put togeter or obtain cheap. USB can also be a solution (although I don't have it yet), but then the "standardized" (RP2350) platform should have a USB connector for it (and one for the keyboard, so the platform should have minimal a 2 channel on board hub. That way you can also achieve standardization. But that platform does not exist. So it has to be created (your "beta" ? Volhout Edited 2024-09-13 18:52 by Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6778 |
The hardware side should be I2C IMHO. What the actual controller is is a different question. :) Ideally there should be a "PicoController" which connects via I2c, using a standard, easily available connector and which has a standard interface into MMBasic. In my dreams it has a RP2040 in it as the interface. This responds to a fixed I2C address to allow its own address to be changed under software control. In this way several controllers can share the same I2C bus, unlike the WII system. The Classics all have the same address and the Pico only has 2 I2C ports. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6778 |
Having "our own" controller gives a fixed standard that everyone can work with. My experiments led to one with an analogue joystick (which can also be a direction switch) and six buttons arranged as a 4-button pad + two others. Powered by a RP2040-Zero. The case problem is a killer though. :( Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4222 |
Mick, I understand your position. But to make this happen, we have to provide the community with controllers, and PicoMite platforms that are compatible. Is this something we can do (building PCB's, housings, cables, putting them together (some 20-50 pieces of each). Of coarse some can be supplied as kits. But some will need to be assembled. I think the only one who has done this more or less under their own control are BigMick and Tom with the Game*Mite. Geoff is using Silicon Chips magazine to do this kind of distribution, and run the financial risk. I think the risk would be lower if we just provide the picomite platform, and tell people that want to play games: this is what to buy. This is all there ever will be supported, so adhere to it. Volhout Edited 2024-09-13 19:10 by Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4222 |
Actually.... not needed. I created a 2 player game once (CIRCLE). No-one on the forum could play it since we are all "loners". That was in essence response I got. Then I made "CIRCLE-ONE" with single player support and AI for the second player. And that is actually used on Geoff's PicoGAME platform. And Tom's Game*Mite. Volhout Edited 2024-09-13 19:15 by Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4036 |
Common sense dictates I stay out of this ... ... but I was never known for my common sense  .Mick, we need to have a pact. You will get over your obsession with I2C and RJ45 connectors and I will forswear the 4021 shift register and DB9 connector  .Assuming we are talking about a Pico based CMM2 "replacement" then IMO the standard should be USB-C power, DVI (HDMI), 3.5mm Audio jack, inbuilt 4-port USB hub with type A connectors, any spare I/O out on a user port. No PS/2. The PicoMite USB firmware(s) includes support for various USB controllers including (I believe) PS3, XBox and SNES style (e.g. Buffalo classic USB controller), there are even "Atari" style joysticks with USB which I'm sure Peter could be persuaded to cater for if we send him one. Hopefully @bigmik will forgive me, but he already designed a RP2040 board (with VGA rather than DVI) to this spec but I'm not sure he has ever pushed it because he was unsatisfied that the USB is a bit "flakey" ... I think this is more due to the limitations of the TinyUSB stack than anything we have control over ... personally I think the USB support is "good enough". One (of no doubt many) problem is that the USB ICs and connector required are all SMD so not the easiest to handle in the usual "@Mixtel90 thru-hole design" (which I personally love the hobbyist aesthetic of). Note we don't have to agree on a single board, we just need to agree on connector types and pin allocations to create an "MSX type" standard that multiple people can implement if they wish. Dives for cover, Tom Edited 2024-09-13 19:21 by thwill Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6778 |
But why be restricted by what's happening at the moment? No, we have no 2 (or more) player games *now*, but a controller could possibly be used on future platforms as we would have full control over its capabilities. A fairly simple system is possible if you don't mind it not looking commercial. My test rig is pretty much this and could fairly easily be a PCB with top and bottom of plastic or PCB material. I used stripboard 100mm x 55mm and it's not too bad. A little wider with rounded corners might be better. It would be a fairly similar construction to the Game*Mite. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6778 |
Done it. That's what's coming up. Alpha, Beta and Gamma are exactly that (but with added I2C goodness as it can be good for IO expansion). I've used a cheap USB 4-port hub module. The chip itself is easy to use though, apparently, but it's SMD only. Alpha - the prototype. Running but doesn't count. Bete - based on the PGA2350 and has a nice GPIO port Gamma - based on the Pico 2. Small GPIO port inside only All fit the same case All use the same ports All have very similar circuit & BOM Front & rear panel PCBs will be available to fit the case There will be a version of Gamma with no surface mount soldering at all. From my manual: . Edited 2024-09-13 19:43 by Mixtel90 Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Gerad Regular Member  Joined: 10/01/2024 Location: GermanyPosts: 42 |
Hello What I don't understand, picomite has the wonderful advanced graphics. Webmite does not. Why ? This is something I really miss. Is it a problem with wifi ? Gerad |
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| thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4036 |
No, it's a problem with computing resources, the RP2040 has enough to do VGA graphics or it has enough to do WiFi, it doesn't have enough to do both at the same time. Best wishes, Tom Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4222 |
Memory...??? In Webmite you can create a framebuffer, but that is single layer. Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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| PhenixRising Guru Joined: 07/11/2023 Location: United KingdomPosts: 857 |
For me, these are happy problems...so much activity, development and options. Exciting times  "CMM2 replacement"???? Say it isn't so. I'm only now discovering the new V2 and it has me seriously excited. |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6778 |
My PZController test rig.  and my idea for a PCB. It got longer, as I mentioned. The RP2040-Zero is soldered to the back of the board. Only rear protection is needed with this arrangement, which makes life a lot easier.  Yes, Tom, I don't mind changing to USB for a controller standard at all. It's just a case of making sure that USB is always implemented on systems that will be used to play games. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4036 |
I quoted "replacement" in my statement, the CMM2 doesn't need replacing ... though I'm still not a fan of it's Wii controller scheme. However it does sometimes seem like: ... and that the best bet for excitement and new interest is coming from the Pico. Best wishes, Tom Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4036 |
It's very nice Mick and I'd be very proud to have concocted it myself, but with regards standards it is IMO a dead-end. I think @Volhout is suggesting that "we" set a standard and say "this is it for games playing, like it or lump it". Best wishes, Tom Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6778 |
IMHO Volhout is right. The difficult bit is to find the standard to use. There are so many of them to choose from. :) This is *exactly* why PZee-control was thought up. There are no standards, every games console has its own and even when they are similar they have different connectors. The only thing approaching a standard is the Atari "5-switch" joystick with it's original, standard wiring. My thoughts were that with our own standard we aren't at the mercy of the games market controller availability. We have the power to define *everything* about it, hardware, firmware & games. Basically everything except a keyboard or the aforementioned joystick is a dead end at the moment - there are no alternatives. If we want anything more we have to either create it or find a commercial device and hope that it will still be available in the future. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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