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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Another Retro Computer ... and the future of the CMM2?
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PeteCotton Guru  Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 368 |
Here's another retro computer that's quite interesting (reviewed by Retro Recipes). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJQgecozNzU It's a very cool project, and is a true 8 bit computer, but (and I hate to sound like a broken record), none of these new projects are a patch on the CMM2. I would hate to see the CMM2 get overlooked in favour of these expensive ($400 and up), far less capable, computers. If you watch the attached video, the reviewer laments the lack of software for the new computer. The CMM2 already has some excellent stuff written for it and ready to go. I honestly think we almost need to start a plan of building up a "re-release" of the CMM2 now that parts are available again. What I mean by that is that the whole eco-system for the CMM2 already exists, but it's kind of scattered around. The hardware and firmware/BASIC is in an excellently stable state (unlike many of the contenders), we already have Tom's welcome tape, and Jiri's CMM2.fun, Geoff's excellent user guide and introduction to programming the CMM2. Peter's implementation of BASIC is sublime, and outstrips every other one I've seen on these other systems. We have experienced guys (Grogster, Gizmo etc.) building and selling boards. Basically, everything that we need to compete with these other new-retro machines already exists - it's just that all of our stuff is spread out all over the internet. I would propose that we create an all volunteer group who work at raising the profile of the CMM2. I'd happily donate some money to pay for some new computers to send to YouTube channels, but before we do that - we'd need to have a cohesive plan, to capitalise on the exposure. Maybe a standard bundle of software (on provided SD-Card), printed manuals and quality cardboard shipping cases that Grogster etc. can provide as part of their sales (at a price point designed to cover those add-ons of course). This would be the whole plug and play experience that we got with the Amiga Bundles.  No need for a new customer to go and download anything, dig around for a compatible power supply, find a keyboard, a vga to HDMI adapter, or print off manuals etc. Obviously there would still be the enthusiast market for just the board - but the price point of the competing systems shows that there is a market for a more expensive, but more complete, system bundle. We could easily build an updated website driven more towards global sales than enthusiasts. Maybe some sales videos produced by ourselves and some simple introduction videos or games reviews. I know a lot of these already exist - but as I mentioned before - these are scattered across the internet in a non-cohesive fashion. I would happily donate some cash towards a Facebook advertising campaign. To be very clear here: I'm not for one second suggesting that this effort tries to "take ownership" of the CMM2. This would have to be done with Peter and Geoff's 100% approval. Nothing would change with the supply channels and people selling the CMM2. We just have a fan driven marketing team that pushes the CMM2 out of the shadows and into the lime light. I remember randomly stumbling across the CMM2 on a retro computer channel - and instantly pulling out my credit card to buy it. The moment I saw it, it was everything I had dreamed of in a retro-computer, and I was like a giddy school child waiting for it's delivery - and it did not disappoint. I know there are thousands of like minded people out there who would get so much joy from knowing that the CMM2 exists. I'm even tempted to go back and polish up my games so that we can really show off the insane capabilities of our mighty little pal. Thoughts? |
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| al18 Senior Member  Joined: 06/07/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 205 |
I watched the video on my YouTube feed, before you posted. It’s an interesting project, as is the X16 project, but I’m not interested. I am interested in retro computers BECAUSE of the existing software for these computers. There is a healthy community built around fixing and upgrading these computers to SD card storage. In a similar vane, there are emulators for nearly all of these machines. The MicroMite family builds on the concept by greatly extending Basic to interface many devices thru GPIO pins and have fully supported the embedded space. It’s really amazing was Geoff and Peter have achieved on amazing inexpensive microcontrollers. Yes, they are 32 bit chips buts that’s what is being designed and manufactured in expensively. In the video, the Mandelbrot program required two hours to run on the F256Jr computer. In the comments, a user posted he type the program in Basic on his Raspberry Pico computer and it finished in less than 1 second. 2 people complained he was using a 32 bit computer. Well yes. They also didn’t point out the Tiny Vicky video chip was likely 32 bit. I would really like to see a manufacturer like Adafruit work out a deal with Geoff and Peter to build the PicoMite/WebMite and offer it for sale in a case - I think it would really sell. |
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Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6795 |
Build it (the huge games software collection) and they will come. :) You have your work cut out to compete with just about any other hardware out there though. Edited 2023-12-04 00:32 by Mixtel90 Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 368 |
Ah - but that's the point isn't it. There are already some great games written for the CMM2 - that most people would think require a knowledge of assembler - but are in fact just BASIC. Mauro Xavier's Gauntlet, Wolfenstein and Mazes of Chaos. Epsilon's XDragon, Tom's Zork and Colossal Cave, all of the 10 line games for the programming challenge, just to name a handful. *Yes I know there's a licensing issue with Gauntlet's graphic assets, but I believe that's why Mauro started on Mazes of Chaos.  Even my own games have something to offer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUyCZoqWgA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZmtP6rtKFM But the excitement with such a machine isn't the games themselves - it's the potential. People can look at something like Maximite Defender (although I think we renamed it to Guardian??) and think "man, I wish I could write arcade games... oh wait, I can. This is just BASIC". Moreover, it's unprotected BASIC, so they can just grab my code and start playing around. In fairness, I'd probably go back and clean the code up for both Guardian and Heliblast to make it easier to understand. If you remember back to the exciting days of the 8-bit and 16-bit era, lots of people dabbled in BASIC but ultimately gave up because it was too slow. Some went on to learn Machine Code, but the discipline required and unrecoverable crashes made this more of chore than a fun experience - so most just gave up. This is the machine for that large group of kids (now adults) who wanted to program, but didn't have the time/patience/knowledge to get into machine code. But, even though we have a large stable of games, I don't think that's necessarily required. I remember everyone (myself included) going googlyeyed when the Atari ST came out with Gauntlet. For the Amiga, it was Defender of the Crown. We just need a select few games that really show case the CMM2's potential. |
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9307 |
Yes, I like your idea, Pete.  Perhaps over the Christmas break, I can look into a more "Complete" package including universal PSU and cable and starter SD card etc, all in a box. SD cards are cheap, and it would be a nice idea for people to be able to run something immediately from the supplied SD card, to show off the capabilities of the thing. The problem - as always - is in the the production costs. Unless you can get them made in bulk, the per-unit costs would go up over and above what they are now. IF you could get a manufacturer such as Adafruit onboard, fine, but as far as my marketing the CMM2 in bulk with packaged features like that, I am not in a position financially to do that, nor do I have the time either, as I have other things I have to do for my work.  And remember, no matter how good something actually is, if you arrange for mass production, but then you can't move the units cos demand or interest drops off, you can bankrupt yourself with a move like that. ET game cartridge from Atari, anyone?  Yes, yes, I know - that game is not exactly known for being one of Atari's best, but the mass-production thing with that cartridge was what I was pointing out - they had warehouses full of unsold cartridges, and ended up burying a lot of them in a landfill to get rid of them. Speaking as a simple one-man business, I don't expect I will be supplying in any kind of quantity other then that I KNOW I can move, which is in batches of ten units. I don't want units sitting on the shelf gathering dust that end up costing me money if they don't sell.  Don't get me wrong - I also love the CMM2, and it is a brilliant machine, and I am very happy to see that sales are still strong for me following the virus and the lack of chips, so that is kinda proof that the machine is a good design with a nice feature-set. I thought interest might have waned after the world had to wait a couple of years before the chips were available again, so it is nice to be wrong on that one.  But unfortunately, it seems I am pretty much the only one building and selling them now, with WhiteWizard being too busy with other things now to even pop in here to the forums and say hello  , CircuitGizmos and PSLabs seem to have pretty much vanished from the forums and the CMM2 scene also, which is a shame, cos when all four of us were selling into our own markets, it worked well to get units into people's hands.I don't mind selling them, in fact I am happy to support the product, but I am not going to be in any position to mass-produce. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6795 |
The Camputers Lynx was in a similar position in some ways. It had very little software support (it arrived too late and missed the home computer boom years so there were no games). A reasonable machine in its own right (one of the last home computers - and it had a machine code monitor!). Unfortunately the manufacturers had built up a pretty big stock when it failed to sell in any quantity (only about 30,000). I don't think it ever even paid for it's production costs, never mind make any profit You have to be prepared to invest in production if you want to sell in quantity. You also have to be prepared to lose a lot of that investment if someone else doesn't come up with some killer software to grab the public's eye - especially when times are difficult cash-wise. The CMM2 isn't a cheap machine for a lot of people. They start to flinch when a price goes over the magic £99 level. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4238 |
CMM2 The CMM2 initially was a great success (I think over 100 are sold). The "blue" module version and CMM2-rev1 where 100% compatible, and that is the majority of sales I guess. Then came the derivatives. The "deluxe versions" and the CMM2rev2. But I guess it is like the 8bit guy mentions about the Commodore C16. When someone writes software, they want it to run on every CMM2, so they have to limit to the capabilities of the CMM2rev1. Not the deluxe, not the rev2. That is what Commodore also learned, and why the C64 was produced with only cosmetic changes for 14 years. So I will order a CMM2rev2 to replace my dead CMM2rev1, but when I release a program for it, it will need to be CMM2rev1 compliant. Volhout P.S. same for PicomiteVGA, I thought about changing the video output to at least include "grey" in it. But this will not be compatible with the released VGA version, and thus will fail to reach the majority of the audience. Edited 2023-12-04 19:39 by Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
I do have have one application where this CMM2 will really shine and I just hope it will be up for the task. I do have an old Macson surface grinder and on stripping an old Hercus cnc the X shaft will be fitted to the Z axis of the surface grinder. Likewise the other two axis will be fitted with steppers and DM556 stepper drivers will be used to drive the unit. So once the parameters are inputted to the software they can be saved for future repeat use. By setting the CMM2 up as a state machine for this task will be a challenging project which in my spare time working night shift will be fun to do. Cheers Bryan |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3802 |
Price may be an issue, yes, but publicity is a bigger one I think. Wish I knew a (cheap & effective) way to get the news out to large numbers of people! John |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 6795 |
Although I hate it and refuse to use it, social media is probably the way to get it known. It's no use starting until there is something that people will want to buy it *for* though. It has to have a purpose, preferably one that isn't possible or is inconvenient with something else. Aiming it at education is probably pointless unless you can make an incredibly strong point for teaching BASIC (and it's more expensive than a RPi). Aiming at the gaming community is pointless until you have some really good games that the current generation want to play. That's a tough market. Aiming it at the makers is pointless as it's too big and isn't programmable using the Arduino IDE. The PicoMite fits better here. TBH I'm not sure where it fits in. :) Perhaps having some of the old-style 8-bit and 16-bit demos would be a start. Edited 2023-12-04 21:37 by Mixtel90 Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4040 |
Yup, the CMM2 is beautiful but even as an early adopter and proponent I'm not sure what it is "for". I would have been happy with the CMM "Classic" getting CSUB support, and am now content with the PicoMite; it has more than enough functionality with sufficient limitations to make it interesting and restrict my "ambition" to projects that are actually deliverable. Regarding the main thrust of the conversation: I'm not convinced we have the right people with sufficient time on their hands to kick the CMM2 up a level; we've "lost" all but one of our vendors (and he is rightly conservative about his investment), we've "lost" our archivist (Jiri), and we've "lost" our virtuoso game developer (MauroX)  , and we've never had a social media face, let's be honest even if I had the time on my hands I'm a "plank of wood" . TBH I thought we'd lost you Pete, are you "back for good" or is this a fly-by rattling of the shed door?IMO if you do want to kick it up a level then you've got to replace https://cmm2.fun/ with a website/archive being maintained by at least 2 people keeping actual copies of the files (not just links to TBS, I acknowledge this was a result of my bad advice) and fully backed by github (or gitlab) so it can be resurrected if even that 2 people plan fails. Alongside this you need a modern Wiki with multiple people committed to maintaining it and copying/linking to interesting material from TBS, sorry "Fruit of the Shed" but no matter how excellent your content is, your user experience sucks. And "no", I'm not volunteering to do any of this, I've considered it several times in the last couple of years and I am not prepared to expend a fraction of the time and dedication required. However if and when this is done then I am prepared to lead an effort to create an updated "Welcome Tape" if that is what is desired. YMMV, Tom Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9307 |
All good points, and I agree totally with what has been said. I am still very happy to support and sell the units, and I can easily keep up with small batches of ten boards. Since I started selling them again, they have pretty much flown out the door, so the demand still seems to be there FOR SMALLER QUANTITIES. More then one customer have bought TWO units, so the price does not seem to bother THOSE customers too much, and everyone else just buys one unit as you would expect. But I will keep selling them and taking backorders for them, so long as I can continue to sell them. I don't want the forums or the members to think I am planning to stop - I'm not - but I just am unwilling to mass-produce due to time and other work demands. As Mick mentioned in one of his posts above, mass-production requires a lot of investment in manufacturing, and unless you already have a pro-forma contract to sell a whole heap of units to someone or a business or retail outlet or something, it is a very risky move that I simply won't be taking. But perfectly happy to keep supplying them to whoever wants them on a unit-by-unit basis etc. Where the CMM2 "Fits in" would HAVE to be it's graphics abilities. They are really something else, compared to any of the other MMBASIC ports including the PicoVGA. Not raining on the PicoVGA's parade either - it is amazing how Peter and co made use of that 2nd core to run the VGA - very clever indeed, and a good use of the resources of the Pico module. But the CMM2 blows everything else out of the water graphics-wise, so that is where I have always seen it as being popular - retro game development. If you just need a VGA screen for some text output for an embedded controller or something, the CMM2 is probably overkill, and the PicoVGA more of a perfect candidate. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 368 |
I 100% agree, and to be clear, I'm not sure we're talking about mass manufacturing here. I'm guessing (with no data to back me up) that around 10 units a week is probably a realistic number. If it becomes much higher than that, then yes, we may need to change strategy - but I'm just talking about getting some traction going for the CMM2. With regards to costs - there will always be a market for the enthusiast who just wants the bare board - but when you look at the competing "complete" systems, there's quite a bit of wiggle room there for the CMM2. F256K is $575 USD Commander X16 is $350 USD ZX Spectrum Next is $410 USD *There is also the Agon Light, which is substantially cheaper - but just doesn't have the capabilities of the CMM2. This is a problem. I agree that the world wide distribution model that grew up organically (or was it planned?) was brilliant. We'd at least need coverage in North America, Europe and Australia/New Zealand. It maybe that there is a possibility of partnering with a mass manufacturer if there is demand - but we'd have to prove that the demand is there first of all. Which I think is where this idea comes from. Prove that it's a viable product. |
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| PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 368 |
I am of much the same mind set - there are a couple of functional changes that are nice to have - a more relaxed USB port (the original one was quite picky about which keyboards would work with it), I'm assuming the deluxe version has better USB support (with it's multiple ports). But when it comes to programming, yes I'll be coding for the lowest common denominator. |
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| PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 368 |
I can see a perfect niche for it. It appeals directly to 40 to 60 year olds who grew up with those old computers (Spectrum, Amstrad, Amiga etc.), ended up spending the next 30 years working hard, and now have some spare money to go back and relive their youth a bit. I say this, as an exact member of that demographic. I think there is quite a large market of like minded/aged people. None of these modern-retro computers are ever going to be able to compete graphically/audio with even the cheapest Windows machine. But the instant boot up, no configuration BASIC that can be used to code games - that is an 80's child's dream. To write a game in Windows, you need to download a programming environment (probably Unity), start mucking around with cameras and textures, and then get to grips with C#... don't get me wrong - I love Unity - but it's not easy to get into. The cherry on the top (in my opinion) is the excellent implementation of BASIC (with a full screen editor). Within a few minutes of unpacking the machine you can be writing your first program. |
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| PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 368 |
All good and valid points. And maybe the answer is that we don't have the right people, but this is an attempt to at least try and answer that question. I never really went away, I just went quiet. I still regularly logged in and read up on developments. This was partly due to outside influences bought on by Covid-19 (having to restructure my business), but also in part because as the CMM2 was effectively discontinued by the chip shortage, my urge to write for the CMM2 vanished. We only had only a handful of active users - and if there were never going to be any new ones - then it seemed a waste of effort. I suspect that may have also been the thinking of the others who faded away as well. The new machines (Pico, Web etc.) are absolutely brilliant, and did a great interim job of filling in the gap left by the CMM2, but they just didn't have the draw for me that the CMM2 did. Over time, the CMM2 stuff on the forum got less and less and became more drowned out by the new, younger stablemates (that's not a complaint - I'm as guilty of giving up on the CMM2 as anyone else is). So I had less and less to contribute to each discussion. But I have been lurking It is all quite a large task - there's no denying it. However, I see this as an "enthusiast club" where crazy things can be achieved, not for monetary gain, but just for the sheer love of the computer. I'm going to give some thought to the website. I agree that we need it to be maintained by a group rather than an individual. I'm happy to fund the hosting etc. But let me give it some thought as to how we can do it.  |
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| PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 368 |
If we sell 10 machines every couple of weeks in three or four markets (Europe, North America, Australia etc.), I think that would be a successful "re-launch". I'm not suggesting for one second that anyone ploughs a tonne of their money into this. If you get overwhelmed with orders, then that's a great problem, and we can tackle it if it happens. But for the foreseeable future, this would be "build on demand", not about keeping stock on shelves. It means a longer shipping date for the customer, however many of the competing machines are selling months in advance - so people are willing to wait. |
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Turbo46 Guru Joined: 24/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1611 |
It seems to me that an updated "Welcome Tape" on an SD card would be a good selling point for the CMM2. If a new purchaser just has to insert the card and type: RUN "WELCOME" <ENTER> and to be presented with a choice of some of the best available games, utilities and demos available for the CMM2 it would be a great introduction. The current welcome tape could be made a little easier to get to as well. Tom's link in the signature leads to a home page from where you have to navigate to it and then work out how to download it. It can be a bit daunting. I'm happy to help where I can. Bill Keep safe. Live long and prosper. |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2350 |
i'm afraid i'm going to sound like a broken record, but... in order to become mass-marketable the CMM2 (or its successor) needs to have an HDMI-compatible video output (DVI over HDMI is fine, with sound on a 3.5mm stereo socket) and solid USB support for keyboard and mouse. USB keyboard and mouse can be achieved with very little effort by placing a CH9350 on the PCB: https://www.wch-ic.com/downloads/CH9350DS_PDF.html DVI over HDMI is a little trickier, but if the RPi Pico (RP2040) can achieve it there is no good reason why the CMM2's processor can not also. or make use of a RPi A+ or RPi Zero as a secondary video processor... but then if you are going down that path why not just port the whole MMBasic interpreter to run on the the RPi A+/Zero using something like ultibo: https://ultibo.org/ either way, VGA and PS2 are legacy interfaces that can not be relied upon to be available (in the form of VGA-compatible monitors and PS2-capable keyboards and meeces) indefinitely. i also believe that the majority of the 'target' CMM2 users are far more interested in good graphics than I/O abilities. so if porting to a RPi A+/Zero there is little need to provide top-notch I/O support. those who do require timing-perfect I/O are far more likely to gravitate towards a PIC32-based MicroMite. and please, NO ethernet!!! as always, just my opinion... cheers, rob :-) |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9307 |
It was planned. During development, Peter was writing the code, and I was to sell into Australia and New Zealand, WhiteWizard was to sell into the UK marker, CircuitGizmos was to sell into the USA market, and PSlabs did anyone else. We actually had a "Gentlemen's agreement", where if one of us got an order from one of the other areas, we would forward that order off to them. It was a great arrangement, and mutually beneficial I thought. It also kept freight costs and delivery times as low as possible. We all had to agree on a sale price, and not to discount or try to steal orders from the others. It worked really well, I thought, considering there was no contract in writing between us, we all just wanted to help move the units to promote the product. @ Rob - Isn't the HDMI thing cos of a license issue? I seem to recall that VGA is freely open, and you can use it for whatever you like, but as soon as you use HDMI in a product that is SOLD, you have to pay license fees. I might have that wrong, but I thought that was one of the main reasons above and beyond the fact that the CMM2 does not support HDMI out of the box. Once you have to start paying a reach-around to the HDMI licensing group, it makes the units EVEN MORE expensive then they are now. Perhaps you can clarify that, cos I might have that wrong, and HDMI might be freely available to use now in a product. People like the Raspberry Pi Foundation, have a contract with the HDMI people for licensing the use of the HDMI technology on their boards either arranged by them, or via Broadcom who supply the ARM chips at the heart of the Raspberry Pi boards. We do not. Edited 2023-12-05 15:29 by Grogster Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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