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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Thought for the day
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thwill Guru  Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4040 |
Hi folks, I can't locate them just now but if I recall correctly the T&Cs for posting on TBS puts the comments and code shared under a Creative Commons license, or that may be Fruit of the Shed, but irrespective this is a public forum and if we share an idea then it is "fair game" for other shedders. However can I urge people to be circumspect in their response to newly opened threads and consider that whilst commenting on and critiquing some new idea is to be desired, that they should perhaps contain their enthusiasm for implementing their own version until the OP has had an opportunity to follow through with their ideas. To do otherwise risks people posting their ideas only when they are "done" or "stuck" which will result in a less rich shed experience for us all. YMMV, Tom Edited 2023-12-17 10:20 by thwill Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| zeitfest Guru Joined: 31/07/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 482 |
A reasonable request I think !! But it won't stop inconsiderate takeover of ideas and so on. In a very different field I have had the experience of asking a firm for a quote for some contract development work, only to see them plan a similar product - which would be their property - and having the nerve to ask for fees in advance ! Unfortunately the only solution seems to be not divulging ideas, and as you say, it is less useful for everyone  |
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9307 |
Ill-gotten-gain is still a big thing, unfortunately. While 99% of us on the forums are in it just for the fun or learning, or teaching ourselves more about thing X, some few see all the work done as a chance for them to profit off it without having put in any effort at all with the development. I'm sure most of you are aware of Geoff's experience with open-source, and how he had to introduce the license for MMBASIC, to basically(pardon the pun!) prevent others from essentially trying to steal all his work and then claim it was THEIR'S. The same thing happened to Linux a few years ago, I seem to recall. Someone tried to copyright/trademark the word "Linux", and then set about demanding huge royalties from EVERY distro that used the word "Linux" in their version, or they would be sued for trademark/copyright infringement. Can you BELEIVE the balls on someone trying to do that!!! I believe that Linus Torvalds himself stepped in to stop that one, but the point being that the bastards tried to do it. It's stuff like that that does indeed make people much more wary of sharing ANY ideas. At the end of the day, if you post in a public forum, you have to be prepared for someone somewhere to take your idea, and perhaps try to plagiarize it for their own financial benefit - to the point of even trying to prevent anyone else from ever using said thing ever again without paying THEM royalties - even though they have never done any development on it at all. There are special places in Hell reserved for people like that. Thankfully, they DO indeed seem to be in the minority, with the majority only wanting to further the movement and help in the development, so......gotta concentrate on the positives rather then the scumbag negatives. Rant, rant, rant.....  Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4040 |
Indeed, if you post ideas in a public forum and have them "stolen" then you've "only got yourself to blame". However I didn't post my comment over financial concerns or in anticipation of stopping ne'er-do-wells. I was thinking more in the realm of "hobby projects" and suggesting that otherwise well-meaning souls might think twice before letting their personal enthusiasm unintentionally step on the feet of an idea's originator* and thus possibly have a detrimental effect on the latter's enthusiasm and productivity. * I have even done this myself to Bill/@Turbo46 in my early days in the shed where I significantly rewrote a "Game of Life" implementation that he was playing with ... I should have waited a couple of weeks ... sorry Bill. Best wishes, Tom P.S. In case anyone thinks this is about the Game*Mite, it isn't, at least not directly, it was something else that prompted my post. Edited 2023-12-19 09:26 by thwill Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 368 |
One of the many things I love about this forum and the Maximite "scene" is that it still has that amateur computer club feel to it, much like I imagine things were back in the early micro days, where people are bouncing ideas off each other and building upon them. I get Tom's point, that occasionally this might result in people's enthusiasm about an idea causing them to split off with competing projects. Those are usually not ill-intentioned projects - just a shared passion. However, I do recognise that there might be a more sinister element lurking among us, who never contribute anything, but are hoovering up the ideas in hopes of making something they can sell. I'm not sure there's anything we can do about that element while still maintaining the fun, exciting openness of our "club". This has been weighing on my mind recently. Specifically, I am working on a repository for CMM2 programs that would be accessible from within the CMM2 (via an ESP32 WiFi chip). Such a repository would become central to the CMM2 experience, and control of it could easily be abused. The files and data are being stored on a cloud server. I am very happy to pay the cost of that for the long term (BASIC programs are small - and the storage is cheap). However, control of those servers cannot lie solely with me (I might be hit by a bus tomorrow - thus locking out any future development/expansion and shutting the service down when my credit card expires). But on the other hand, I cannot just open it all up to the group because there needs to be a security key embedded in the ESP32 in order to upload to the repository. This key itself doesn't pose any real security breach - it will allow you to upload files to the server - which you would be able to do from within the CMM2 anyway - however, what I don't want is somebody else coming along and then using my server to backup their DVD collection etc. Or even having another hobby computer manufacturer come in and start using "our" repository for their own programs. *Obviously I'm absolutely fine with other maximite designs using it, if it turns out to be successful. The only viable solution I can come up with (although I am open to any other suggestions), is to form a group of 4 or 5 of the forum "elders" who would have full access to the ESP32 source, and would also have admin logins for the servers. It's not 100% fool-proof - but on the whole having a trusted group control the resources would ensure that it remains un-abused. The cloud server I use allows admin accounts to be created that cannot be locked out by other admins - thus no one person could go in and take control. The other safety-net is to provide a special command (sent to the ESP32 com port) that would allow the user to change the passkey (held in the ESP32) and redirect the database/downloads to a different URL. Then, if anything happens to the original repository, another could be setup. The glaring problem with this is that currently nothing stops a malicious BASIC program in our repository from issuing this command and redirecting people to an alternative server (and permanently breaking the link to the original server). To prevent malicious code from doing this, I might have to include a push button on the final hardware that has to be held down while the redirect command is executed - thus stopping programs from doing it secretly. Thoughts? |
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Turbo46 Guru Joined: 24/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1611 |
I know of at least one such member. But in their own selfish way they still "spreading the word" when their project sees the light of day. This "club" continues to amaze me with members from all corners of the globe, speaking many different languages and all contributing (well most). It warms the heart. No need to apologise for that Tom it was hardly an original idea. Both you and TassyJim made significant enhancements to it and because of that it ended up on the Welcome Tape. Bill PS How many corners are there in a globe? Keep safe. Live long and prosper. |
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| PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 368 |
I would like to just clarify that for the people who are just reading and not writing anything - I wasn't having a dig at you. You are absolutely very welcome here. I myself was lurking on here for the longest while before posting anything - I loved it. There is a great deal of enjoyment to be gained from learning from the hugely diverse amount of knowledge, wisdom and talent shown by many of the shedders daily. I was specifically referring to the possibility that there were people with ill intent, looking to take the ideas here and monetise them as their own. Re-reading my comment, I wasn't sure if that came across - and I wanted to be sure that I didn't make anyone feel less welcome. That was not my intent - and sorry if it came across that way. Edited 2023-12-19 14:03 by PeteCotton |
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| Turbo46 Guru Joined: 24/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1611 |
Pete, I understood what you meant and I was a "lurker" for quite a while before I had the confidence to feel that I could contribute. It is easy to understand how a hack such as me could be intimidated by the skills and knowledge that many on TBS display and feel they have nothing to contribute in comparison. Even those who just ask for help add to the learning process. Tom, It may not have been about the Game*Mite but it could just as easily be. As one who was privy to the back and forth communications between you and bigmik to get the design, board and manual just right, it was more than just a bit disappointing to see imitations coming out almost within days. Bill Keep safe. Live long and prosper. |
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| lizby Guru Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3150 |
I've been retired for 25 years and have no wish to monetize anything (well, maybe I have fantasies), but I do hope that there are "monetizers" looking at this and other forums for ideas which may have commercial success. It's quite possible that some of the brilliant work on inverters in another backshed forum has been integrated into Chinese models--for the benefit of buyers. In other areas, I don't doubt that youtube investigators have caused across-the-board improvements in products which are widely bought, like will prowse with batteries and BMS modules. The process is an example of how little guys with notable ideas or investigative skills can add to general progress, even if they don't have the means or connections (or desire) to profit themselves from their work. Of course, cases like Geoff's are different, involving wholesale theft of code, not just of ideas. And also, Chinese manufacturers are notoriously given to theft of internationally recognized intellectual property. I don't think Tom's post was addressing these matters, but rather the narrower case of someone presenting an idea and a project, and someone else then bigfooting it. I may myself have been guilty of this. Sometimes, this may be helpful, if the details of the original plan are suboptimal but the idea has merit. The original poster may or may not appreciate the followup. Sometime the OP doesn't know about prior work. In any case, I'll try to keep Tom's cautions in mind. PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4040 |
Correct, I was suggesting that those well-meaning but big-footed shedders (a group also containing myself) just maybe hold off a few weeks before presenting their "complete" alternative implementation (earlier responses with alternative ideas and steering are fine) rather than unintentionally discouraging the efforts of an idea's "originator". Best wishes, Tom Edited 2023-12-20 00:03 by thwill Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| William Leue Guru Joined: 03/07/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 393 |
I still really enjoy writing code for the CMM2, and have no intention of trying to monetize any of my work -- it is done purely for the enjoyment of writing code and the fun of seeing the enjoyment of others who like it, or even of those who don't. I have published something like 40+ programs on CMM2.FUN and now just on the forum since CMM2.FUN went static. But I have written something like 3 times as many programs: the rest are either incomplete or just not worthy IMHO. Anyway, I agree that a lot of the fun is the community here. It would be nice to find some way to keep expanding it. -Bill |
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