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Forum Index : Other Stuff : NSW poles & wires
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muddy0409 Senior Member  Joined: 15/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 125 |
I hear on tonight's news our premier is looking for someone in Japan to "lease" NSW's power poles and wires. Just out of interest, how would a lessee make money just by holding onto these assets. Do they charge the generators to send their power out over them? Got me beat. Any clues guys? Don't poo poo conspiracy theories. Remember that everything ever discovered started somewhere as a theory. |
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BobD Guru  Joined: 07/12/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 935 |
The retailers charge the suckers, sorry consumers. They then pay a charge to the poles and wires people and a separate charge to the generators. |
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| BobD Guru Joined: 07/12/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 935 |
That earlier post of mine was cut short by the summons to dinner. When she says jump, I says how high. If you want a bit more on it then you can Google for australian electricity market and also read a bit here. It's complex. In respect of NSW being just about to sell off the poles and wires business apparently there will be some job losses. This is because the regulator has set the rate to something comparable to the states that have privatised. The regulator wanted to set the rate even lower but there were enough screams (guvvamint, unions, etc.) that there was a compromise for which the consumers will pay. But all will end with no tears, the NSW guvvamint will get more for the sale. The unions still not happy but happier than initially and as I said, the suckers will pay. ______________________________________ Don't poo poo conspiracy theories Just follow the money  |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi BobD The mullti layer of production distribution and wholesale then retail in the system just adds to the profit spread which is then charged on to the consumer, it is a falicy that our govvermint is acting for the benefit of the people, and looking just at ways to generate profits and taxes and employing more administrative staff that are parasites on the system. All the more reason for us to get our own process in order and become not dependent on the grid. Glenn has demonstrated that it is a practical solution and can be done at a lower price than a connection to the grid, top marks Glenn. In Queensland I have noted a 400% increase in service charge, which is supposed to cover the distribution network of power and poles. It went from $23 last year to $88 this year plus GST of course. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| muddy0409 Senior Member Joined: 15/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 125 |
That explains it. I knew there had to be profit in it somewhere, otherwise they would never find a buyer anywhere. Just interested in how and to whom they charged. Thanks. Don't poo poo conspiracy theories. Remember that everything ever discovered started somewhere as a theory. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Its not all such a big rip off. Whoever leases the system also has to maintain it, and that takes a very large highly distributed staff, and plenty of organization and investment. Think floods, bush fires, storm damage, lightning strike, vehicles randomly knocking poles down, tree pruning, inspection and replacement of rotten poles, broken insulators, replacement of truly ancient fuses and pole transformers when they unexpectedly blow up. And also extending and upgrading the existing distribution system into new areas. When consumers lose power, they want it restored right away, not in a few days. The government wins, because they will have a fixed price contract without the constant dramas of day to day running problems. Whoever wins that lease must run a lean and mean organization if they (and their shareholders) are going to derive a profit from it. Another thing to think about is fraud and corruption. Goverment run organizatios are notorious for running lazy corrupt slack sloppy outfits. Two hour lunches, and continuous long tea breaks, and clocking your mates in and out is the accepted thing in much of government service. Its all public money and nobody gives a damn. A private boss that must meet very specific performance goals, with horrific financial penalty clauses, knows HIS arse is on the line if he permits a slack and dishonest crew to systematically undermine and defraud the company they all work for. Its actually a win win situation for everyone, if it is done right. Its also a time proven method to clean out a totally corrupted (over time) government system, where nobody can be demoted or sacked. Declare all the bastards redundant, pay them all off, get rid of the lot, and let a private company hire and fire the minimum number of high quality staff that have the right work ethic. Cheers, Tony. |
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| BobD Guru Joined: 07/12/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 935 |
Well said, Tony. Exactly my thoughts. Bob |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Tony All true and reasonable and i think it demonstrates the extent that the system has run down over the years, and if they can make a lean mean and efficient organization to to the work it would succeed but the past experience would tend to question that. I think that the lessee would probably use the same people that have been working on the distribution system over time's past, unless they import foreign workers to do the work. and you can be sure that the corrupt in the present system will transfer to the new system. I would like to be an idealist but past experience makes me feel unsure of the improvement, and as for benefits to the consumer, when Telstra did this and used all contract workers their system went to pot, Our phones have just been out for 4 weeks due the bit of rain in SE Queensland. Live in hope and die in the process a wise man once said. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Yes probably. The pick of the original middle management, and some at the "supervisor" level maybe. Those with the skills and long work experience in their specialist fields. But skilled "trades" people, and basic "office" administration at lower levels are not difficult to find to fill in the bulk of the workforce. The thing to do is cut the fat and the bloat out of the old system. Offer good pay and conditions to really motivated people. Hire, promote, and fire as required to keep the system really sharp. Senior management can be motivated by bonusus for meeting minimum performance goals set by government in the original contract. The company can be fined for any screw ups. This has now become normal business practice for other utilities leased out to private companies, such as bus and rail in most states. And it seems to be working quite well. Cheers, Tony. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Tony Sounds good in theory and I know it can be done but I am a bit skeptical about it happening, it may require a bit of time to sift out the dead wood in the system, but I still feel we as consumers will inevitably pay more for the service as I just found out on my bills. With the fees and GST combined over 12 months it equates to $800, for that amount I could run my little diesel generator to keep the batteries topped up. The fact that it is a Asian company looking at it may well help the efficiency but the profits will be exported like so many other enterprises where others are seen as better managers of the books and the workforce. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| BobD Guru Joined: 07/12/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 935 |
Muddy I just read that the NSW power distro businesses will be going to court to invalidate and increase the Australian Energy Regulator's rulings about future power charges for NSW. Of course, they will be egged on by the NSW government. The story states that the extra charges, if approved by a court, would amount to $500 extra, on average, to every NSW power connection over a 5 year period. That's a lot of money. The story further states that on average, the NSW distro businesses are charging double what the VICs are charging for the same service and they want more. As I initially speculated in my first response to this thread, the businesses are being fattened, courtesy of the NSW consumers, for privatisation. Given that I'm in VIC, I'm not too bothered by all of this. It's pointless to include a reference to the story as it's behind a pay wall. If you were to ask me privately ..... Bob |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Bob As Australia sinks further into the debt abyss we will see many attacks on reason within the essential services industry, Power Water supply and land rates, looking at this in a real term we can see that the Government is putting together a series of corporate entities stacked like a Puff pastry to pull as much money from the public as possible, and they see this as a way to survive, pay up existing debt and provide infrastructure security for the future, all necessary things to do, but the issue is the time frame, as they are doing it over a short time frame to insure their survival, and not over the long term as it should have been done, as in some ways we where getting services at a discount as provided by government utilities and now the government can no longer afford to be charitable we have copped the whole lot in a short time frame with additional coasts associated with the commercialization of the system. The only thing we can do is try to be more independent of the leaches. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Go off grid. Its not that hard, or expensive if you shop around and, more importantly, lower your expectations. I've been off grid for over 3 years now, and I'm doing it with a battery bank and solar panels way below what is recommended. My batteries cost $1600, and I've never run out of power, but I have learned to cut back on use when I need to. Basically, I took responsibility for my electricity supply and needs. Grid electricity, like fuel for our vehicles, is very cheap when you think about it. Consider it, you can be entertained, fed, cleaned and made comfortable for a few dollars a day. Consider how much it would cost to hire people to provide the same service, to push your 2 ton vehicle to work and back, to build a fire, wash your cloths and sit on a pedal generator so you can watch tv. The problem is we have become accustomed to cheap energy. And now that prices are starting to climb, we complain. We complain about paying more for luxuries as though they were essential for us to live. I've heard people complain about the cost of air conditioning, even though many of them grew up without it. And people driving SUV's to pick up their kids from school complain about the price of fuel, when they as children would walk or ride a push bike to school, and their parents had one small car that their dad took to work. So I say, if the price of grid power is too high, stop using it. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
If you do an energy audit of your "on grid home", you will discover that by far the most power is consumed by small constant loads that run for many hours, sometimes 24 hours, rather than very high peak loads that run only for very short periods. The economics are such, that the best approach is to remain "on grid" but to supply most of your daily power needs from a smallish solar source, and only draw grid power for short infrequent peak loads. For example, my refrigerator draws 120 watts, but the peak start up power is 4.0Kw (17 amps). Its about 1,000 watts averaged over the one second start up period. But it still needs a 4Kw plus surge rated inverter to cleanly start the motor. That is a big problem. But even one solar panel would easily provide the 120 watts constant running power. Its the massive motor starting energy requirement that kills you. A thousand watts for one second (drawn from the grid) is nothing. You get 3,600 refrigerator starts for only 1 charged Kwh, and if you can then supply the 120 watts running power for free from solar, you have it made ! So what is needed is not a grid tie inverter, but a mains powered rectfier, hooked up to a sufficiently large inverter. Ac to dc conversion, then dc to ac conversion. What you can then do is feed in solar dc power into the dc link, sufficient to power small constant loads, and draw peak loads ONLY from the grid. The higher your dc link voltage, the more efficient it will all be. In many ways it works something like a grid tie inverter, but feeds nothing back into the grid, and continues to provide limited power if the grid goes down. And a basic bare bones system would not need to have a battery. A battery would certainly improve performance at night, and may be able to supply full peak power if the grid goes down, but it may not be economic in strict dollar terms to fit a battery if you are located in the suburbs. As far as I know, this is a uniqe approach to the whole problem for grid connected consumers. The advantages compared to a grid tie inverter are that it is a lot simpler, it avoids all the tricky rules about feeding power back into the grid, and it keeps going when the grid dies. A suitably large UPS could conceivably be modified to do this, but much better overall power efficiency could be obtained by building something from scratch. Cheers, Tony. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All Top marks for you Glenn for practicing what you preach, it is true that to masters of our own destiny we have to bite the bullet and have a go. As you mentioned in a previous entry you are able to run a air conditioner as well off your system. I also have a friend who operates off a 12 volt system with a 3000 watt inverter, he had a 250 AH lead acid battery and has just upgraded to a 250 AH LIPO battery and says the difference is amazing, he has six 100 watt panels and an Anderson plug to connect his 4x4 to the system for a bit of extra punch, a 12 volt generator on an old villiers 2 HP motor for backup charging in winter. He has all 12 volt odds and ends and only runs the inverter for the fridge and washing machine toaster and microwave. He has used the old 250 AH lead acid battery to run lights and water pump and electric fence. The only thing that gives his system away is the 12 volt TV 24" is a bit smaller than we have become conditioned too. A small price to pay for independence, the quote to connect power to his house was $38,000 so far he has has 3 years use and including the new LIPO battery it has cost him $4200 so is way in front. A good trick he uses is an 80 farad cap across the inverter for high start current devices as it gives a boot to start them instantly without wire losses coming into play for that second or two. He just bought a 1000 watt Grid feed setup for $500 second hand from someone doing an upgrade, and is feeding that back through his inverter into the system, the only problem he has now is to much power during the day and says he will need more batteries. This will run a air conditioner, as that has been the only thing they have missed. There is advantage in having a clean slate as Ted has, and also Glenn, because you can mix and match to suit what you need. A similar set up could be used in conjunction with the grid by running a small, say 5 amp trickle charger into the system through a solar regulator to keep things topped up as required. With the average power cost per house at $4 a day or $1500 a year it wouldn't take long to make a hybrid system a financial success. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Glenn, I'm halfway there to this off grid idea. What stops me going all the way are high power draw items like the oven. So I'm wondering if you are doing your cooking with electricity or other methods? Also, what size inverter are you using? Thanks. Klaus |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Ovens and other electrical heating devices can be a problem for a small battery bank. I dont have a oven at this time. There was a electric oven and stove top in the house when I bought it, I replaced the stove top with a gas unit, I prefer gas stoves anyway and I picked it up at a swap meet for about $70 in near new condition. The plan is to eventually put in a gas oven as well, but they are somewhat more expensive than electric ovens, so the pizza's, sunday roasts and cakes will have to wait. But I do use a microwave for 2 to 10 minutes a night, electric kettle, rice cooker, etc. Everything but an oven. Same goes for cloths dryer. I have one that I've used maybe once a year, since I have lots of under cover area's to hang cloths to dry naturally. If I do need to run the cloths dryer, maybe its raining and I need some cloths in a hurry, I start a 6kw generator. My washing machine is a front loader that heats its own water, draws about 2.5kw during the heat cycle, but only for a few minutes. Naturally I run this during the day. I can also use the generator to give the batteries a charge for an hour or so if its been very overcast for a couple of days. This happens maybe 5 times a year. Middle of the day the solar panels generate up to 2kw, so I have more than enough, can even run the air conditioner if its hot. My inverter is a 7kw Latronics. Been pretty good, once a year or so it may restart, power drops out for a few seconds. Pretty rare event, from what I hear the local grid power drops out every few weeks for an hour or so, but I've never been aware of it. So out here my off grid power is more reliable than the grid. The inverter has a 20kw peak, and I regularly use it for welding and other workshop power tools with a high start current, never let me down. Naturally I do these things during the day. At night I run a light or two, 40"tv, PC, cooking appliances, water pressure pump, etc, and have never run out of power. In the morning I check the battery charger and its still over 48.5 volts most mornings. Remember this is a small capacity system, with a big inverter. There are just over 2kw of solar panel, and the battery bank is made of 8 230Ah golf cart batteries. A wind generator helps at night, its not really needed if the weather is clear next day as the panels can fully charge the battery bank by late morning. But having a windmill that runs at night to offset your power usage means your battery bank will last much longer as its not cycled as deep. I would like to add another 2kw of solar to help during the overcast days, and a bigger battery bank, but at the moment the system is working well and like I've said, I've never run out of power. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Glenn You mention you have 8 230 amp golf cart batteries assuming that you have a discharge of less than 50% on these for reasonable life span would a set of LIPO batteries at 250 AH be a option with a draw down of 80% to improve your system without overly enlarging anything else. You are using all the things needed for a normal life now and the only concession is a bit of generator run occasionally, with the fees and charges on Grid Power now I could run my generator for 4 hours a day on diesel, which of course is never needed under the QLD sun. The reason I ask this is that I too am looking for an oven and been doing some testing on an old one I have here, it is a fan forced 1500 watt unit I picked up at the dump sale yard, not good enough for the house but OK for drying Plaster molds, On checking it out I found that it uses a bit over 500 watts per hour, if you do not open the door and let the heat out, initial draw for about 10 minutes at 1500 watts but after that it pulses the element on to maintain the heat. I did cook some bread in it and it did a real good job. Also I have done some checking on induction cooking and found it very economical, I can cook a saucepan of porridge in the morning using just 300 watts of power, looking at it from a cost point of view it compares favorably with gas. If the power is there it is wise to use it I think as once the regulator shuts back it is solar energy wasted. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Would it be possible to modify an oven to work direct from low dc voltage ? Some time ago, I built a very high current test load from commercially available high wattage cast iron grid resistors. Secondhand from an electrical machinery graveyard they are dirt cheap. Even brand new they are not that expensive. They come in all shapes, sizes and resistances, and are basically just a crude lump of cast iron. Something like this: http://www.suzuki-gokin.co.jp/eng/resistor/img/grid_img.jpg Cheers, Tony. |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Bob Yeah been reading about LIPO batteries, they have some good characteristics, except price. At the moment the lead acids are doing well, very little voltage difference between cells, and they still have enough charge in them in the morning to boil the kettle and keep the voltage above 47 while doing so ( about 45 amps draw ). So while they are working well, I'll keep using them and keep an eye on the battery market. The maintenance is easy, I top up the water once a month and give them a clean once a year. Will watch battery prices closely. With Tesla's new wall unit hitting the market, I think we may see a drop in prices over the next year as competitors get onto the band wagon. Warpspeed I run a few appliances on 12v, I have a 12v feed to the house from a separate system. Couple of desk lamps mainly, plus the pump for the solar hot water system. It's fused to 5 amps. Using 48 volts to drive a oven would need a hefty cable run from the battery room to the house, about 30 meters, and 50 or so amps. The inverter is pretty efficient, so running the oven off it would only loose a couple % efficiency compared to directly from the batteries. End of the day your still draining a lot of battery power. I'm pretty keen on gas for the oven. Gas is cheap, I originally ran the cook top of a 4.5kg gas bottle for 9 months without a refill! Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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