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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Hydronic Space Heating
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MacGyver Guru  Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
'Twas The Night Before Christmas And all through the house, not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse . . . oh, unless you count the rather large creature crawling around in the attic. That would be me. My hydronic heater core arrived today by UPS, so I decided to take advantage of some FREE HEAT as soon as I could. Where I live in Texas, the electricity provider, TXU, has a plan that sets your charge per kilowatt hour about half a cent higher, BUT lets you use all the electricity you can between the hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. Electricity usage during that time slot is absolutely FREE and there's NO LIMIT to the amount you can use. Enter one larger-than-life retired plumber. That' would again be me. Anyway, "water" has a very high specific heat. The amount of heat it takes to raise one mole (a micro-millimute amount of water) one degree is 540 thousand! calories (540 KCal). That's a bunch. So what; who cares, you ask? Well, here's what: with FREE electricity for 8 hours a day and AT NIGHT no less, I can cook up a bunch of hot water and the water stores heat like almost no other common liquid (except oil maybe). I being a retired professional plumber, was able to design and install a "loop" system within my existing potable hot-water system and merely, with the flick of a switch (actually a timer), let the water heater cook while all the time, scalding hot water shuttles through my baseboard fin-'n-tube hydronic heater and my bedroom stays toasty warm with no muss, fuss or noisy fans. The only physical pump is the little one that makes the magic happen. It is on the return line right up against the base of the water heater in the attic space above my laundry room. You can't hear it run even if you're sitting right next to it! As the scalding-hot water passes through the central tube of the heater, the heat is collected by about a gerzillion aluminum fins. Once the fins are hot, the air between them heats up and as if by magic, becomes less dense and rises against gravity (hot air rises). This is called 'convection' and it "pumps" the air in my bedroom around and around, heating it on each cycle, whilst Teddy (my stuffed animal bed partner) and I snuggle warm as toast in bed. It doesn't get any better than this! :O) 
This is the "before" shot showing initial installation. All pipes are insulated within the walls and attic with closed-cell foam insulation. 
Voila'! This is the finished product mounted on an as-yet unpainted wall. It works like a champ! 
Here's that little pump. It's on a timer and cuts off a half hour before my free-electriity window ends. That gives the water heater time enough to recover and I get a free hot shower when I get up iin the morning. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Way to go. A question, you get free electricity for 8 hours each night, is that only offered to private residences? Or to commercial interests also? We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Hi Mac. That is the way to make the system work for everyone. A perfect time for you to get a Nissan Leaf, Chev. Volt, or if your harvest does well (hydroponic}, a Tesla model S. Free battery charge for all of Texas. That's good news. Happy Holidays. ---------Roe Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
@ norcold I'm not sure. TXU's Customer Service number is 972-791-2888; give them a call and tell them what you have in mind. I'm pretty sure it's only for Texas customers though. Somehow, I don't think the wires stretch all the way across the pond to you folks down under, but I've been wrong before! If you liked this project, you'll LOVE what's comin' down the line next. I put up a post about it in "other Stuff. Basically, I've designed a VERY effecient propane heating system. So efficient in fact, that I can heat my entire 1,200 square foot home for only about $20 a month. I'll post the build when it happens. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
I would also be buying a large battery, an even larger inverter, and a battery charger that only switches on when the power is free. Cheers, Tony. |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
@ Warpspeed We're birds of a feather in that way. We agree there's nothing like FREE; why not grab all you can? The difference is, I'm the bloke, whose windmills pump air. I store my power as compressed air, which also comes my way free, so the free electricity is just a bonus. A receiver (steel storage tank) is far cheape than either a fork lift battery or an inverter capable of creating household electric power. Add to that the fact I make my own "air" engines, which can be coupled to a generator and we have the best of both worlds. I haven't shared my "steam" engines on the 4m as yet, but someday I'll line 'em up and explain how they work. All mine use compressed air, mineral oil as a lubricant, "O" rings for seals and so on. Very soon, I'll be building a 3-cylinder single-acting engine for my 7-year-old grandson out in California. It will run on CO2 from a standard BB-Gun cartridge and a control valve. A small engine like this is more than enough to drag a small Honda generator, which pumps out something like around 500 watts RMS (whatever that stands for). Now, I should mention this: The "partial pressure" of CO2 gas, stored as liquid carbonic, is 920 psi, which is nothing to thumb your nose at. The little engine for my grandson will use an intermediary receiver as a way to buffer the expanding carbonic gas in the cylinder before it runs through the little engine. I don't want it to take off at light speed and scare the crap out of him! Anyway, we're each more or less on the same page when it comes to FREE energy (not to be confused with that magic crap that doesn't exist) and making the best of our situations. Thanks for the reply. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Ah yes! I am working on a Top Secret project myself right now. Being grid connected certainly has its advantages, but I am an old mean stingy miserly bastard, in retirement, and plan to be as cost effective and independent as possible in the future. A third of the total power consumed here is by annoying little things that run 24 hours per day, and cannot realistically be turned off. It's only about 63 watts continuous load (about 260mA), but that adds up to 1.5 KWh per day. My evil plan involves rectifying the incoming mains voltage to generate high dc voltages both +ve and -ve, then running a true sinewave inverter off that, to power everything in the house. I can then run some solar, and a battery to generate maybe only 65 watts of high voltage dc to run the sinewave inverter when at very low power. The idea behind all this, is that with only a 65 watt dc/dc voltage converter I know I could cut my overall power consumption by a third. If I switch in a really big load, such as the refrigerator starting up, it pulls power from the grid. But when the compressor is not actally running, the inside light and control system are powered from the low power solar battery and inverter. Thats just an example of how the system should operate. I need only a 65 watt dc/dc converter, and maybe a hairy chested 10Kw+ ac inverter to do it. There should not be much difficulty getting about 2Kwh per day solar in summer, say 200 watts for 10 hours average, it is not a lot. How this should work, is the 240 volt mains when rectified will generate about +/-340 volts dc. If I can charge up some big electrolytic storage capacitors to a voltage just slightly greater than that, with a relatively low powered dc/dc voltage converter, the mains rectifiers will never conduct. All the power will come from the battery. When someone starts up the washing machine, microwave, or whatever, the voltage on the capaictors will be pulled down and the mains rectifiers will instantly kick in. Should be pretty seamless with no appreciable voltage dip. And the solar and battery size would not need to be huge to cut my power usage by a third. It also seems to be an economically viable project. Only really big item required is the inverter, which I am designing and building first thing right now. As a retired power electronics engineer, a 10 to 30peak Kw true sinewave inverter is pretty straightforward for me, it's the sort of thing I used to do in my past life. And not all that expensiveto to put togeter either. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Should read this thread first, Sorry Mac George |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
@ Warpspeed All sounds pretty complicated to me; I'm more of a hands-on mechanical type. Electronics kinda escapes me. HOWEVER here's something I've always wanted to try, but never had the balls: My idea was to somehow get a copper coil wrapped around the electric mains service connectors BEFORE the meter, so any electricity used (alternating current, mind you) would induce a current into the coil, which would then be siphoned off by yours turely. Of course, as things usually go, one might end up being granted an extended stay at Hotel No Knob (jail) for such an effort! Just an idea. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Fellows, the solution is near. We`ve an Irish Cable Running Team right here in OZ somewhere. Used them before they are very qualified and diversified.(probably Biodegradable too  )
We just get them to run a cable across the pond to the power pole outside Mac`s Shouse, and presto free power 8 hours a day for all of OZ. Curtsy of Texas. Only problem we have is rounding the team up. Believe they`re still in OZ, anyone seen them? We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
That (plus some free hot water) was going to be phase two of my plan. Great minds think alike. One way to sneak some free power(but not much)would be to use the small voltage that always exists between the neutral wire and local ground. With the MEN (multiple earth neutral) three phase power distribution system we have here in oZ, there are some fearsome circulating currents in the neutral/ground system that could probably be harnessed. Free power in Texas when the sun goes down, makes any alternative power generating system look expensive. I just wonder though how long the power utility will keep this free power offer going when recourceful and inventive people like us start to get really greedy. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Texas has this problem with new wind installation. It was discovered after all the subsidy's and tax breaks, that there was no place to connect the output. Several hundred miles of new National Grid is near completion and when that happens the free lunch is over The local grids will loose the surplus now available. For a interesting look at Texas Wind Power Cheers-----Roe Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
@ Greenbelt Texas has its OWN grid. There are three in the U.S. and one is Texas'. The free power gig may end, but even if it does, I can heat my home in the winter for around $20 a month and provide all my own electricity courtesy of a 2" bore x 2" stroke, 6-cylinder air engine I'm building, with free compressed air from any of my windmills, so what do I care? @ Warpspeed As for 'free hot water', I'm planning this Spring, on installing a new awning on my south side. I will arrange its angle of "tilt" to be approximately that of the latitude where I live, so the sun's rays will hit it at approximately 90* all day long. Next, I'll take clear acetate panels I get at Homd Depot and screw that to the top side of the roof. Then, I'll put together a top and bottom "header" of 1/2" PEX (polyethylene) black-painted pipe with a gob of "tees" and place one vertical run in each of the raised portions of the plastic sheet, making a ginormous solar water heater. Again I say, "free hot water"! . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Now that sounds like a plan ! The black plastic pipe is a good idea as it resists frost and freezing better than copper pipe, a lot cheaper too.... But the water could actually boil in mid summer which may cause problems as the plastic loses all its strength and may rupture at full mains water pressure. A gravity fed system supplied from a header tank is a good solution. Cheers, Tony. |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Warpspeed PEX pipe is rated for water at a working pressure of 55-600 psig and 210*F. I have a temperature and pressure relief valve on the system set for 210*F and / or 150 psig. I'm hoping it won't be a problem. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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