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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Renewable enrgy idea.
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Clueless Newbie  Joined: 11/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 9 |
Hi everyone, this is my first post on this forum. I have been shopping around, looking for somewhere I can ask some questions and hopefully spark some interest in an idea I have for generating electricity. I have been kicking around this idea for about 8 years now, but have always tossed up weather I should talk about it or battle away with the limited ability and technical know how that I have and try to nock up a scaled down version of it in my garage. Or just put it out there for everyone to see? I don't want to sound presumptuous and I certainly don't claim to know much about generating electricity. What I have thought up, and I think it is an original idea, is a way to get a very large renewable force working on a fluid to turn a turbine. Its that force or pressure which is the idea thats been playing on my mind. I suppose I am looking for somebody to take a look at it and shoot it down or maybe see some merit in it. So if you know about electricity generation & hydraulics, I would be keen to have a chat. For building a prototype I intend using a small Hydraulic motor to turn a small generator to produce electricity and would have to build a cylinder and basic piston to drive the fluid through the motor. I am open to suggestions for diff types of motors and items that might have a motor built into to them, for example I think power steering systems have a small Hydraulic motor built into them. The main thing is that they need to rotate using a very small volume of fluid in order to keep things scaled down. So. There it is, if your interested & think you can help, send me an email & we can chat. Jeff Hmm, AAh, Doh! |
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| davef Guru  Joined: 14/05/2006 Location: New ZealandPosts: 499 |
If it is an original idea, that works, why not patent it? I would suggest a few things before hitting the patent office: - prior search - what is the overall efficiency of your proposed system Whoever responds and wants to help get them to sign an NDA first, or you won't have a leg to stand on. Good luck, Dave |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Jeff What is the energy source for the device, remembering you only can get out what you put in, minus the losses along the way. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Clueless Newbie Joined: 11/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 9 |
Dave I have done allot of searching to see if the idea is allready out there, I found one reference or patent which touched on it but it missed the force I want to target. Inregards to patents, once you patent the clock starts ticking, I don't have anything phisical yet, and I know it can be improved through Hydraulic rams or by mechanical methods but I don't have the expertise to do it, there is another varyation I have drawn up. Both use the sam basic principle to supply the force but mechanically are very different. So I need to talk it over with the right person. There are plenty of people and paper trails inplace that do demonstraight my ownership of the idea. So I don't mind talking about it to the right people but am reluctant to place it on the net. I am in a bit of a catch 22. Hmm, AAh, Doh! |
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| Clueless Newbie Joined: 11/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 9 |
Glenn Regarding the energy source It can supply Tons of force on a fluid to drive a motor. So any inefficiencies can be countered by increasing the pressure until you get what you need to drive the motor. But given my limited mechanical knowledge I am shore my ideas can be approved upon. Dave, Do you have a link to a NDA form that could be used?? Hmm, AAh, Doh! |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Clueless There are lots steps between an idea and a production and in my experience a patent is a waste of time till you get a serious backer, or you will just waste your money and somebody will steal your ideas anyway, an open forum such as this is good to learn from but ND documents are as good as hip pocket in a tee shirt unless you have mega dollars to enforce them, so the moral of the story is if you think you have an earth shattering new process keep it close to the chest. Having played with hydraulics and alternate energy over the years, I have tried most ideas and found them workable but a bit lossey as hydraulic power transmission tends to be, so that side is cut and dried but your new force is what you want to look at for a patent. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Clueless Just curious, but does one half of this equation drive the other half? By that, I mean, is this like a wind turbine on an electric car, where the car driving around creates wind, which movess the turbine that in turn generates electricity to drive the car? If that's the case, rest easy; you won't be needing a patent. If on the other hand, your original power source is actually a renewable source, go for it. My suggestion is to build the thing and test it yourself. Once you have a working model, you'll be more successful at attracting investors. Investors, however are more likely to be interested if the idea is "protected" by a patent, which they can purchase from you. It's a vicious circle and know this: At least in the USA, until a patent is granted, any information you send to the patent office is "Public Property" and you can bet the lobby of the US Patent Office is full of Chinese guys with cell phones. Just my take on things. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Yeah I'm thinking this is heading the same way Mac. What I mean by energy source Jeff is the supply of energy to the device. If you put the device in a box, and take some energy out of the box, say, electricity, then you need to be putting something into the box, like fuel, wind, sunshine, water flow etc. Basically to get out you must put in, its the laws of thermodynamics. If there isn't going to be a energy source requirement and consumption, like fuel for a car, or sunshine for a solar panel, then it cant work. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Clueless Newbie Joined: 11/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 9 |
Glenn The energy source places allot of weight on a piston or fluid body. Its coming from tides or rivers but does not use flow or wave motion and does not require submerged machinery. I am happy to discuss it offline if you want to PM me, as you are an administrator and I assume a very respected member of this forum. Really what I am after here is someone to talk to that can look at the idea, see if it has merit or put it to bed if they think it won't work. Hmm, AAh, Doh! |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Jeff What we're trying to work out first is if the device is what we call a over unity device, that is, a device that makes power, without consuming anything. A classic case is "magnet motors" where magnets are used to drive a motor. The inventor thinks they can use the magnet force to create energy, drive a output shaft. But magnets are a force, not a energy source. Its just like trying to make a motor that works on gravity, springs, etc. It will work once, but then stops, because you need to put energy back into it. Classic case, a wind up clock. No one can build a clock that uses is movement to wind its spring back up, but there will be patents to say someone thinks it can be done. This sort of thinking is actually very common, we would get 3 or 4 a year on this forum alone, so if an idea seams a little bit suspect, we like to make sure its not a "magnet motor" type of device before taking it seriously. So thats why we would ask questions like what is the energy source before getting to involved. If you using water pressure alone, then no, you can not extract power from it without it changing and being replenished. Take a hydro power station. Water pressure comes from a dam, the turbines release that pressure through a impeller, the water flows, and you get energy. The dams supply of water is been used up. We can not use the power generated from the turbines to pump the water back into the dam to be reused, because it would take more energy than we extracted ( laws of thermodynamics ). Where is our energy coming from? The sun, causes water evaporation from the oceans, creates weather patterns, wind and rain, fills our dam. If you want to use pressure, you need a change in pressure to harness energy. Now if you are using the tides as a source of your change in pressure, then it can work, because its using a external energy source ( the decay of the moons orbit ). Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Clueless Newbie Joined: 11/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 9 |
Glenn It is renewable and in the case of using tides it would be run for a length of time determined by the quantity of fluid and flow rates, which comes back to the specific requirements of the generator and hydraulic motor it will be driving. The units would need to be setup in a bank so that they could span a 12 hour period. The number of units would again be determined by the mechanics of the system. In a case where you set up next to a river, it would require 3 units with some water being diverted into the system and then being returned a little downstream having passed through the three system in order to keep a constant flow of energy. But it does not use flow to generate the force. Hmm, AAh, Doh! |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Clueless I have worked on a few energy schemes over the years and am vaguely familiar with what you are proposing, I would be prepared to help if needed, and agree not to use your technology if it is profound and new, which at the moment I would doubt. You can PM me if you like for contact details. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Clueless Newbie Joined: 11/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 9 |
Thanks Bob PM sent Hmm, AAh, Doh! |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Clueless First off, if I were you, I'd change my handle! It's hard to take anything you say seriously with the name "Clueless". Anyways, seems to me back in the day, folks in the Netherlands did something along the lines of what you're suggesting. Their country is mostly at or below sea level, so as the tides change (usually twice a day) they would harness the movement of water first one way, then the opposite when the tide changes. This "FLOW" was the motive force to drive whatever it was they were doing. I think it was merely a simple paddle wheel or maybe an axial-flow propeller or something and they either pumped hydraulic fluid or made electricity directly. In this case that flow was gravity dependent and was indeed renewable unless, of course, that guy in the Bible who made the world stop spinning for one complete day happened by. 
. . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Clueless Newbie Joined: 11/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 9 |
Thanks for those suporting words. A suitable name for me might be "Cryptic Joe" Becaouse I keep asking questions but can't give a straight answer. 
I have had a chat with Bob. Looks like It might have some merit. He has been involved in something similar before but this is different & probably worth a shot. So I'm going to have a go at building something in the garage. So thanks everyone for the advice upto now. As I am electronically handicapped I will probably need some more help as time goes by, so you havn't heard the last of me yet. First thing is procurement, involves spending money. I am good at that. Currently looking for - One very small hydraulic pump/motor which can be used as a motor but needs to have a very low CC/RPM rating. 1cm or less. - One vihicle electric fan motor (small). - 1 or 2 Hydraulic rams, Large volume(diameter)max 600mm (2f) stroke. Bob did suggest a Jabsco pump but the ones I found on the net seem to pump a fairly large volume. But will have a look at some tomorrow. Thanks again. Hmm, AAh, Doh! |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi all Clueless isn't as clueless as his handle would indicate, has a good idea, not that it's new but it has merit and could have a place in base load power generation in the right environment, he needs a bit of help on the details, and I would encourage members to be supportive if possible. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
There is a small hydraulic pump/motor combination in every fridge. If that suits you might get a junked one free. Klaus |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Cryptic Joe How about a peristaltic pump or a syringe? I don't know what pressures you're after here; both things I've mentioned will work with only VERY small pressures. If there were a way to disclose more of what you're up to without compromizing your cryptic-ness, it'd be a big help. There is a plethora of clever minds on this 4m. Hope that helps. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Clueless Newbie Joined: 11/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 9 |
Here is a very basic drawing of what I need to build. 
This is a reasonaly priced pump I am thinking of buying and using as a motor. I can get a slightly smaller one the uses less than 1cubic cm per rev.  Hmm, AAh, Doh! |
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