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Forum Index : Other Stuff : For the Folks in the USA Cap &Trade
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isaiah Guru  Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
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This site will calculate your utilitys bills if cap & trade passes s http://www.costofenergy.org/energy-calculator.html URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| Dinges Senior Member  Joined: 04/01/2008 Location: AlbaniaPosts: 510 |
That calculator starts from an unreasonable assumption: it calculates what your energy bill would look like, assuming you don't change your behaviour. That's an unrealistic assumption from an economic point of view, as people reduce their consumption of goods of which prices increase ('inferior goods' excluded). It will provide a stimulation for people to change their behaviour in ways that consume less energy, rendering the outcome of that calculator without real meaning. So, in that view, the outcome of that calculator is useless - it takes only a part of the effects into account (and only the perceived negative effects, for that matter); which is to be expected from such calculators, that have a (not-so-hidden) agenda. It is like an accountant who only writes costs in the books, but fails to include the benefits, thereby distorting reality. Cap and trade doesn't go nearly far enough. Drastic reductions in emissions are what is required, not zero-growth. Still, I hope the cap and trade program comes to pass quickly, as it appears the only way some people will change their behaviour is when it's felt directly in their wallets. Sad, but appears to be the truth for many. Consider yourself lucky to have been paying far below the true cost of energy in the past. It's likely that your cap'n trade program will only be a first step on the way to include externalities in the cost (more correctly: price) of energy. Myself, I'm pleasantly surprized to see such a program enacted in your country. Peter. |
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Sonny Regular Member  Joined: 17/01/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 66 |
Dinges, If I have anything to do with cap and tax it will never pass and about 70 or 80 percent of Americans believe the same way. We don't need the government telling us what and how to live our lives. If you think you are doing all this to prevent the hoax of global warming, you are just lieing to yourself. Have you not been paying attention to what has turned up in the last few months showing how this whole global warming thing has been perpetuated by idiot so called scientist and idiots like Al(I'm a fat a$$)Gore. Gore was worth maybe 3 or 4 million when he left the vice presidents office. He is now worth something in the neighborhood of 700 to 800 million( yes that's right hundred million) and all of it made off the global warming hoax. Now don't you think he has a reason to perpetuate the hoax. We in America don't like the government telling us how to do anything. I understand you fellows had your guns taken away, do you know what that makes you? Most all Americans know that an armed person is a citizen and an "unarmed person is a slave". We have another saying here also when a killer and thief is kicking down your door and you need help in the next few seconds " a cop is only minutes away" a complete novice |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Well said Sonny!('  ')
What my original plan was when I got interested in wind and solar was to tell the power company and Al gore and company to get their wires and poles off my property! I hold the highest title to this property and the electric company has no easement or right of way! Here is a copy of a article that came out in the monthly magazine a year ago put out by the local power company. As you can see between the lines in this article the power company is laying the hidden ground work to gouge all they can from their customers. Isaiah http://countrylines.com/ ('  ') ('') ('')
Amid the growing economic and energy crises, electricity could become a pricey luxury instead of an affordable staple. Electricity powers us through every day, from when our alarm clock wakes us up in the morning to when we turn off lights at night. While it’s easy to take electric power for granted, that may not always be the case. Today’s economic crisis makes it all the more critical that work begin soon to address growing issues in the energy industry. Otherwise, electricity could quickly become less of an affordable staple and more of a pricey luxury.(' ')('')('')
Cleaner coal plants, such as the one proposed for Rogers City by Wolverine Power Cooprative, can help future energy needs and protect the environment.In recent years, the collision of several factors–increasing demand for electricity, rising fuel and construction costs, and climate change–has created what’s been called the energy industry’s “perfect storm.” The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) forecasts that the need for electricity will climb by 30 percent between now and 2030. To meet this growth, the U.S. Department of Agriculture projects that electric co-ops must double generation capacity over the next 11 years. Yet building new power plants will be expensive, so electric co-ops must turn to both cutting-edge and time-tested solutions to “keeping the lights on”—from advanced power generation technology still under development to proven energy efficiency programs. “Without advancing technology, our options are limited,” says Glenn English, CEO of the National Rural Electric Cooperative Association (NRECA), the Arlington, VA-based service arm of the nation’s 900-plus consumer-owned electric co-ops. “But whatever solutions we come to in addressing this energy crisis must keep consumers in mind. With many electric co-op members already working hard to make ends meet, this is no time to enact hasty energy policy that will push electric bills higher.” Relatively high costs for construction materials and uncertainty about climate change goals, which could place strict limits on carbon dioxide emitted by power plants, have stalled development of new base-load generation, the large, efficient stations that provide dependable and affordable electric power year-round. New nuclear power plants—sources of clean base-load generation—are stymied by high costs and local political resistance in many areas. As a result, the last new reactor to become operational was a Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) plant in 1996, according to the Nuclear Energy Institute. Since then, only one other, older reactor was refurbished, also by TVA in 2007. Unless new, thoughtful public policy streamlines the process, that trend could continue, English warns. In years past, the burden of meeting electric demand would typically fall to coal-fired plants, which provide about one-half of the nation’s electricity. But with plans for new coal plants hitting snags, utilities are being forced to turn to a more expensive fuel: natural gas. In 2007, generation and transmission co-ops planned on using natural gas for one-quarter of their new power plants; in just one year that number has climbed to 53 percent. “The main challenge we’re facing now is that it’s hard to build new base-load generation in general, but even tougher for units that don’t burn natural gas,” remarks Paul McCurley, NRECA chief engineer. “The lower up-front costs but higher operating costs of natural gas generation traditionally made it a good fuel source for peaking power—used when demand for electricity is at its highest—but not for base-load power plants that generate electricity around the clock.” “There’s no doubt it is going to be difficult to build new coal-fired and nuclear power plants in coming years, two key sources of base-load generation,” English says. “The resulting reliance on natural gas increases the risk of higher electric bills to consumers and lowers overall reliability due to decreasing fuel diversity. Unfortunately, the question no longer is whether electric bills will increase, but just how high they will go.” In an effort to broaden limited options and make bills more affordable, electric co-ops have come to embrace the concept of a multi-pronged solution spelled out by the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), a nonprofit, utility-sponsored consortium whose members include electric co-ops. With heavy focus on research and development, an array of yet-to-be-developed and existing technologies could keep affordable electricity flowing between now and 2030 while significantly reducing carbon dioxide emissions. Steps to achieving that diverse solution include investing in renewable energy, building advanced, clean-coal-fired power plants, expanding nuclear power capacity, stringing new transmission lines, and improving energy efficiency across the board. (' ')('')('')
Fortunately, electric co-ops have a long tradition of promoting energy efficiency. “The vast majority of electric co-ops, a full 92 percent, already sponsor energy efficiency education programs, and 77 percent offer residential energy audits to their consumers,” explains Ed Torrero, executive director of NRECA’s Cooperative Research Network. “Just under half provide financial incentives for residential energy efficiency upgrades.” Electric co-ops are also pioneers in load management programs, which allow them to reduce power consumption by managing when and how electricity gets used. Consumers, who volunteer for the programs, typically don’t even notice when “load control” happens. Between energy efficiency and load management efforts, electric co-ops reduced demand by 2,200 megawatts in 2006—roughly the equivalent of three large coal-fired power plants, according to EIA. That added up to $50 million in fuel cost savings and offset more than 2,000 tons of carbon dioxide emissions, equal to what 700 cars put out in a year. That kind of proactive planning has partially reduced pressure on the electric utility industry as a whole, but more work remains. As soon as next year, some parts of the country could experience a very real shortage of power unless more power plants are built, according to a late 2008 report by the North American Electric Reliability Corporation, a Princeton, NJ-based nonprofit organization charged with monitoring America’s power system reliability. As the “perfect storm’s” thunderheads continue to build, electric cooperatives are working hard to keep electricity safe, reliable, and affordable. English points to the electric co-op grassroots awareness campaign “Our Energy, Our Future,™” as an important part of solving the nation’s energy crisis, and encourages consumers to visit ourenergy.coop to continue the effort. “By creating a dialogue between consumers and elected officials about our collective energy future, we build the foundation for a working partnership in which government understands and can help meet the needs of cooperative members,” English explains. “Though co-ops are taking steps to deal with this impending crisis through energy efficiency and demand-response programs, serious policy decisions are ahead of us—the root problems are certainly not going away.” Scott Gates writes on consumer and cooperative affairs for the National Rural Electric Cooperative Association. Amid the growing economic and energy crises, electricity could become a pricey luxury instead of an affordable staple.(' ') ('') ('')URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| Sonny Regular Member Joined: 17/01/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 66 |
Isaiah, We have a couple electric co-ops around here and that tried this, it went over like a lead balloon. "Electric co-ops are also pioneers in load management programs, which allow them to reduce power consumption by managing when and how electricity gets used. Consumers, who volunteer for the programs, typically don’t even notice when “load control” happens" Maybe one out of a thousand signed up for it. You basically turn your thermostat over to them and they control the temperature in your house and you have no say in where it's set. If your like my wife and I, neither one of us is in good health, one minute we are cold and the next we are burning up. So we give our thermostat a good work out. a complete novice |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
* URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| Dinges Senior Member Joined: 04/01/2008 Location: AlbaniaPosts: 510 |
It looks like a meaningful discussion and sharing of opinions based on facts is not possible here. I have given you my opinion on the situation and, given your responses, I will leave it at that. I'm not sure what Al Gore's body mass index has to do with it all, nor scientific conspiracy theories or your right to bare arms. Or police intervention to burglaries. But that's probably me. The misinformation that's being spread on load management is telling. One final thing: I really, *really* hope that you, Sonny, don't heat your home with electricity, as your remark on electricity load-sharing seems to suggest. That would be one of the most wasteful things I could imagine. But don't worry, it's not going to be me that will be interfering with your right to be wasteful. Take care. You're in for a bumpy ride. Things are rapidly changing, if you hadn't noticed yet. Peter. (<-- whose alarm clock is powered by a spring that he rewinds every evening; not electricity). |
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| Sonny Regular Member Joined: 17/01/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 66 |
Yes I heat with electricity but we are lucky here in the southern states. We have a hydroelectric damn about every 25 miles. So our rates are among the lowest in the country. I don't know the exact number but I'm sure at least 60 persent of the homes here heat with electricity As far as Al Gores fat a$$, he is always running his mouth spouting hot air and the more he runs it the bigger his a$$ gets. I don't know because I haven't been to Europe since the 60's courteous of the US Marine Corps, so I have only read what it is like with your government over there. We Americans are an independent lot who pride ourself on being self sufficient and not depending on the government taking care of us. Dinges, I don't mind discussing any topic but you will find that we in the states haven't bought into this global warming thing near as much as you Europeans have. Most here are very skeptical of any of the hype. And then in the past few months, the emails being released showing where the so called global warming scientist had falsified all kinds of data to make it show what they had wanted it to and not what the truth was. then there was the thing about the glaciers melting and would be gone in like the next 10 years. turns out the whole thing was taken from an article written for some mens magazine by a grad student in Switzerland. If your not skeptical after all this has come out then I guess you will never get it. a complete novice |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
^ URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| Dinges Senior Member Joined: 04/01/2008 Location: AlbaniaPosts: 510 |
[quote=Isaiah]This is just mind control.[/quote] When someone disagrees with you, his mind is being controlled? Are you suggesting my mind is being controlled? If so, put your money where your mouth is and call a cat a cat. If not - it's just empty rhetorics. Incidentally, your screen name suggests some religious background. If you are, you may want to be very careful before you accuse others of being victims to mind control. [quote=Isaiah]What Al Gore and company are after is your money.[/quote] Not sure why you're so hung-up about Al Gore. To the best of my knowledge he's a private citizen with no more power than you or I. I have no business with Al Gore - I think he was (is?) a member of the Democratic party, and once made a movie on the topic? Apart from that, I'm not sure what he has to do with global climate change. I couldn't care less about what Al Gore or his dog think of the issue. Next time I need a root canal done, I will not inquire for Al Gore's expert opinion - I go to the people who are educated, trained and have work experience in that matter. I hope you do too. Educate yourself on the topic. Getting your knowledge from Al Gore or Fox news seems less-than-reliable to me. You could for instance start with the IPCC climate reports, one of the very sources of everything else you will read about the topic. Or even just read the summary of them. Hint: if your news outlets call it 'global warming' instead of 'global climate change', you may want to reconsider whether your news source is a reliable source on the matter (and other matters too, perhaps). They probably didn't bother to check their facts before publishing them, if they do call it global 'warming'. When, in the face of this overwhelming evidence, you still prefer to deny reality, then that is something that is up to you and you alone - but don't expect others to act in the same irresponsible manner as you. Bullying people is generally frowned upon too by civilized people (see your constant personal attacks on Al Gore), and seen as an inability to debate on content. Just FYI. [quote=Isaiah]If cap & trade passes the electric bill will go up 30% or more.[/quote] Price goes up, demand goes down. Basic economics. But you seem to think that people will *not* cut down their energy use? That seems to contradict basic economic theory. Or are the economists in on this conspiracy too? [quote=Isaiah]The people and the environment will not benefit from it.[/quote] Simply stating something does not necessarily make it true. I've dabbled a bit with economics in a distant past and, to the best of my knowledge, the law of supply and demand hasn't been repealed yet. Higher prices -> less demand -> less consumption -> less production -> less polution. But maybe you could point out the errors in my thought here. Just leave Al Gore or his weight out of it, ok? [quote=Isaiah]Do Not let the Government control any thing is the best policy.[/quote] Very tough talking. Unfortunately, not closely related to reality. Government exists (amongst others) to implement policies that citizens couldn't organize on their own, either due to the scale or 'free rider' problem. Last time I checked, the military (you reading, Sonny? I think the US marines receive their paycheck from the government too?), the police, prison system, FDA, patent office, coast guard, etc.etc. were all run by the government. And do not forget that, in the end, it's the people who control the government - so accusing 'government' of things sounds kinda silly. It's like accusing your right hand of punching a guy in the face. [quote=Isaiah]I wouldn't be a bit suprised to see that Al Gore is scamming money from your country also.[/quote] Indeed. Never let reality interfere with a good conspiracy theory. Nice way of making accusations you can't substantiate, without actually making accusations. Undermining someone's good name in this way is normally called character assasination. Nasty tactics. [quote=Sonny]We Americans are an independent lot who pride ourself on being self sufficient and not depending on the government taking care of us.[/quote] What 'You' Americans are or are not (or think you are) has little impact on reality. The overwhelming majority of evidence (notice I'm not calling it 'proof') points in the direction of anthropogenic causes of global climate change. There's very little disagreement on that basic notion in scientific circles (BTW, I happen to associate myself as one, so calling scientists 'idiots' or 'conspiracists' I consider to be a personal insult). There are disagreements on the details, but hardly about the major outlines. Ignoring and/or discarding the wealth of knowledge, experience and critical thinking of scientists all over the world, is something you are free to do, at your own risk. You may find that the rest of us have a little bit more trouble accepting your conspiracy theories of Al Gore though. BTW: If you're looking for certainty, then don't look to science and engineers - you'd better turn to religion, if it's (a promise of) certainty you want. So, to readdress your statement: it's not about the government taking care of you, it's *you* taking care of yourself and your fellow humans to make sure your children will still have a habitat in a hundred years. In fact, it's a purely selfish motivation to do so, not some vague-greeny-vegetarian-granola-eating-hippy-potsmoking-stuf f. Nature and reality don't give a damn whether humans still exist and thrive 200 years from now - only humans do, and should. [quote=Sonny]As far as Al Gores fat a$$, he is always running his mouth spouting hot air and the more he runs it the bigger his a$$ gets.[/quote] Cute. But why this obsession with Al Gore's rear end? [quote=Sonny]Dinges, I don't mind discussing any topic but you will find that we in the states haven't bought into this global warming thing near as much as you Europeans have.[/quote] You make it nearly sound as if it is a religion, something you either believe in or not. I have not much room for beliefs in my life, I'm more interested in reality, facts and testable hypotheses. That's why I enjoyed reading (parts of) the IPCC reports so much - it never states certainties, but is nearly always talking of 'likelihoods' and 'probabilities', when interpreting data and drawing conclusions from it. Global climate change is not something you believe in, just as evolutionary theory isn't a belief. Again, you're free to deny the reality of either - the world will not abruptly come to a standstill if you do. Or at least not immediately. [quote=Sonny]Most here are very skeptical of any of the hype.[/quote] It matters not what the majority thinks of it. If the majority thinks the theory of gravity is 'just a theory' anyway.... how would that actually change reality? Calling it a 'hype' implies many things which, so far, you haven't substantiated. I call it empty rhetorics until you do. [quote] And then in the past few months, the emails being released showing where the so called global warming scientist had falsified all kinds of data to make it show what they had wanted it to and not what the truth was.[/quote] Do you have a source for that? If so, do you mind sharing? Finally - scientists are human as well, with all negative and positive traits that encompasses, including lying and falsifying. It's the scientific *process* that ensures that, in the long run, falsification of data or analyses will not stand the test of time. Considering the vast amount of people involved, I'd be very surprized if all of them were involved in some major conspiracy or cover-up. [quote=Sonny]then there was the thing about the glaciers melting and would be gone in like the next 10 years.[/quote] Do you have a link to the source that made that statement? [quote=Sonny]turns out the whole thing was taken from an article written for some mens magazine by a grad student in Switzerland.[/quote] I'm not familiar with that article - I don't read men's magazines. I try to get my information from other sources. [quote=Sonny]If your not skeptical after all this has come out then I guess you will never get it.[/quote] Skepticism is one of the traits I value most highly. In the end it's only that that has brought human kind to where we are now. Without it, we would still be burning witches and stoning gays and adulterers. But I think you are confusing 'not being skeptical' with 'not educating yourself' or 'deliberately neglecting reality'? Skepticism does not mean you stick your head in the ground to avoid reality. It means searching for facts (not opinions from news anchors or politicians), analyzing them and drawing your conclusions. Even when you don't like what the conclusion is. And accepting that your conclusions are only tentative, and that you may need to reconsider the issue when new information comes up. Nothing is certain, nothing is absolute, and you can only rely on your own thinking capabilities. In short, thinking for yourself, instead of letting others do the thinking for you, which is abject laziness. Nothing is for certain, and there are no absolutes in life. Anyone who is telling you differently is trying to sell you something. Peter. (<--who, for all you know, may be in on this vast conspiracy too) |
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oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
double post somehow Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
[quote] The overwhelming majority of evidence (notice I'm not calling it 'proof') points in the direction of anthropogenic causes of global climate change. There's very little disagreement on that basic notion in scientific circles [/quote] I have heard this in the press along with "the science is now in" etc etc. I have tried to find some scientific evidence to support this, and beyond hopeless extrapolations with 26 different weather models that can't predict tomorrows weather successfully, it just does not fly. [quote]You make it nearly sound as if it is a religion, something you either believe in or not. I have not much room for beliefs in my life, I'm more interested in reality, facts and testable hypotheses. That's why I enjoyed reading (parts of) the IPCC reports so much - it never states certainties, but is nearly always talking of 'likelihoods' and 'probabilities', when interpreting data and drawing conclusions from it.[/quote] That sounds like a religion to me. No proof, just likelihoods and probabilities and fanciful dreaming. Every possibility and hypothesis is based on modelling... none of which have a basis in fact.... just models. How can the science be "in" and "agreed upon", when there is none available. Quantum theory has more basis in fact... and it is more hotly contested. There are thousands of scientists who disagree. Why don't we hear from them?... and if it cannot be agreed upon, how sound is it anyway. If it were compelling, then all scientists could be swayed with the facts.... thats how theory is tested and accepted as the best available model. This is more a join the dots science.... with a vested interest group placing the dots and supplying the rules on how to join them up. The email blunder by the eminent panel of scientists that are also involved with the IPCC climate reports (I think one was the chair?), involved some 3000 emails which were secured and published. You will find them with google. I only read a pracy from the 2 national news papers. It was interesting to see the response of the global warming groups. It seemed to revolve around the need to limit the damage, because this may cause some wavering amongst the followers. This would be bad, as the planet was at risk (because of global warming), and this sort of publicity may pollute the pure science of global warming.????? A village idiot (me) may think that if the facts supporting the theory were corrupted, the theory is corrupted.....but no it seems you need faith above all else. Anyway: It seems to involve data corruption, scientific journal manipulation, removal of naysayers from their jobs, changing the figures to make their cases look better, ignoring data that was not helpful to the cause, corrupting satellite data (some of which they had control of, allowing them to dispute data from those they did not),and yet other emails discussing why the world was not unfolding as they had predicted, and how they would best skew the known data to suite their story... ie what to leave out, and what to push hard on. It extended to changing the procedures used to get things published in the scientific journals....to make it hard to impossible to publish opposing data/arguments and generally behaving like the Spanish inquisition, not your lead scientists... It seems your ipcc reports are not even based in fact, but revolved around some truth, some falsifications, some bare lies, and mostly unrelated facts, blended into it to make it seem reasonable to a reasonable person. How is this remotely related to no fear or favor rigorous testing of theories. The religious angle is best represented by the howls of protest when ever people question the validity of the reports and thrust of the warming debate. Heresy. Heresy.... this usually means you have no basis in fact, and don't want to allow open discussion.... as show in the emails of your eminent persons. The emperor has no clothes, and if you take the time to question each facit of the warming argument, you will see in the clear light of day, that it is so full of holes, it can't be taken as in any way related to science. It's a theory.... and a shaky one at that. Well the rock stars, actors, ex politicians, and arts degree journalists seem to have a mortgage on the science..... I am not a politician rock star or actor.... or arts degree journalist..... must be why I just don't get it. I am one of those no-hopers that thought science required proof. Theory requires no proof, but needs to be tested brutally to try and prove it's validity or not. In this case, there is no testing, just scrabbling around trying to find supporting "evidence", which will "prove" any theory..... just ignore all the things against it, and then everything must by definition be for it..... simple.... the science is in! I have spent a deal of time reading reports from atmospheric scientists regarding many facits of this (alerted to the stuff on fieldlines a few years ago), and can only say that the conclusions they reached on the evidence they presented was fanciful at best, and unsupported by any test. This involved ice cores, ocean salinity, sea ice development... etc. There was even reference to arctic sea ice raising the sea levels if it were to melt...?????? Seems the arctic ocean is not aware of the havoc it is supposed to wreak to sea levels each year. Only the converted could read this with a straight face. I agree that resources are limited, an we need to change our ways, but lying to the population the scare them into accepting change is not the way. The wheels will fall off this in the not too distant future, and the ramifications may be brutal. Don't sin or you will burn in hell....... sounds familiar.... Show me the science... not the Nostradamus nonsense.... So far we have... If we continue on our merry way......we WILL get global warning. 1. could mean loss of countless species (thats new?) 2. could mean earths climate may change (never happened before has it?) 3. could precipitate an ice age 4. could precipitate a heat wave 5. could melt all the glaciers 6. could melt the ice caps 7. could be responsible for the 100000sq kilometers of extra ice in antartica in the last 10 years of warming 8. could mean more cyclones or hurricanes some years 9. could mean less cyclones or hurricanes some years an the list goes on..... I think they have all the bets covered. No matter what happens, it is because of global warming...... Gee mister ..IT MUST BE TRUE.. all of the above may happen.... or not.. Seems the last decade was cooler... when it was supposed to be warmer ..... check the boys emails, and we see that they then change what time we are comparing to. Compared to previous years back in the sixties, it was not.... it was in deed warmer .... however..compared to the late nineties, then these last years were cooler... it's an accountants game.... and look where the world is there. This chapter in "science" will do irreparable harm to science. It is being corrupted by money and fame. It will end in tears, and take environmental science an maybe even real science a long time to recover. Thats a bad thing. Go back and read again, and this time separate out the facts from the hypnobabble and see if it really stacks up as a valid theory, or a theory being propped up by selective examples. end rant ..........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I dont buy into this climate change theory, I think is a case of mother nature and a cycle of change. Yes we have done damage to the planet and always will because it suits us best. You dont see the ones who object the loudest taking a sail boat compared to a plane or a horse compared to a car or making any other sacrifices, but they make a lot of noise about what others do. To jump in with both feet on fixing a problem that may or may not exist seems silly to me. If you dont know whats broken how can you fix it?? Look at the facts that history has shown long before man, and not at some pie in the sky theory of what might be happening. Australia was once an inland sea and is now a desert, is that because some primitive man once worked out how to make fire . I doubt it!! If you can track down a study done on mud sediment from the blue lake in Mount Gambier you might find it very interesting as it showed cycles of long droughts and warm temperatures lasting over 50 years in the past followed by cycles of long wet periods with lower temperatures, a course of nature long before man ever influenced the environment. Just because we dont like what we see now is that a reason to blame someone else and Fuch with a course of nature to make it more suitable for man. Nature will always win, it always has and always will, weather we like it or not!! There is no question that we as a human race have become a parasite to the planet. We have infested every part of the planet. Yes we do need to make changes but thats got more to do with our mentality rather than the environment. As for religion... that goes against every thing that science tells us, and many believe in religion, so who is right? Is the science right or is religion right? They both can not be correct. Its a bit like having your cake and eating it to, I think. Ok i have spent my 20 cents worth of rant. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Sonny Regular Member Joined: 17/01/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 66 |
Peter, I don't know how to put the little box in there for quotes, so I will just make it bold. Government exists (amongst others) to implement policies that citizens couldn't organize on their own, either due to the scale or 'free rider' problem. Last time I checked, the military (you reading, Sonny? I think the US marines receive their paycheck from the government too?), the police, prison system, FDA, patent office, coast guard, etc.etc. were all run by the government. This is so darn funny I almost fell in the floor laughing. You see Peter over here we all pay taxes and I assume you do too. The government can't give you what it doesn't have. Everything I made as a Marine( upper case"M") came from the taxes the people of this country pay, not the other way around. Under our Consituion the federal government has a very limited roll, their main purpose is the defence of the country, nothing more nothing less. Over the years because of greedy politions the federal government does a lot of things it's not suppose to. We are near a rebellion here now because the liberals have spent so much money they don't have, that our grandkids will not be able to pay it off. Ignoring and/or discarding the wealth of knowledge, experience and critical thinking of scientists all over the world, is something you are free to do, at your own risk. You may find that the rest of us have a little bit more trouble accepting your conspiracy theories of Al Gore though. Al Gore is a flim flam man, he is into this global climit change as you like to call it, for one reason and one reason only to make money How do you think he has made all those hundreds of millions of dollars. By selling his so called carbon gredits. Where did he get all those gredits, he printed them up and sold them to idiots who buy into the crap he spews. So, to readdress your statement: it's not about the government taking care of you, it's *you* taking care of yourself and your fellow humans to make sure your children will still have a habitat in a hundred years. In fact, it's a purely selfish motivation to do so, not some vague-greeny-vegetarian-granola-eating-hippy-potsmoking-stuf f. Nature and reality don't give a damn whether humans still exist and thrive 200 years from now - only humans do, and should. Our country and it's citizens have always taken care of ourselves and others. Did you happen to see the aircraft carriers show up with all the supplies and hellicopters when the sunamie hit a few years ago. And the same thing down in Hatie now. How many ships full of supplies and hospital ships have your country sent. Billions of dollars spent in Africa on the AIDS epidemic. How much has your country done for those people???????? Edited to add something I forgot last night. If it weren't for America, England, and a host of other countries, you would be speaking german right now. But hey what do I know, you might e speaking it now anyway. Quote: And then in the past few months, the emails being released showing where the so called global warming scientist had falsified all kinds of data to make it show what they had wanted it to and not what the truth was. Do you have a source for that? If so, do you mind sharing? Finally - scientists are human as well, with all negative and positive traits that encompasses, including lying and falsifying. It's the scientific *process* that ensures that, in the long run, falsification of data or analyses will not stand the test of time. Considering the vast amount of people involved, I'd be very surprized if all of them were involved in some major conspiracy or cover-up. I guess your news agencies are like our liberal media, they only tell you what they want you to hear. This story has been all over the news here for months. I will find a link later and post it for you. Al Gore lieing more on Al Gore more on Gore part 1 part 2 part 3 part 4 part 5 part 6 I will be back later to add some more about the hoax One more before I go to bed. Hoax Emails Make sure you scroll all the way to the bottom of the page, all the links you want exposing the hoax a complete novice |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Sonny, You commented about placing quotes in the box windows and not knowing how to do it. Its quite easy. All you need to do is place the text you want in the quote box between {quote} ........ {/quote} You will need to change the { } to [ ] either side of the "quote" and "/quote". If i used [ ] in the example above, all you would see on the screen would have been this. [quote] ......... [/quote] Give it a go and use the preview post button to see the result without posting it to the forum. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Sonny Regular Member Joined: 17/01/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 66 |
Thanks Downwind, that works great.  a complete novice |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Wow! This is quite a post. Looks to me like everyone is merely pushing each others' buttons to elicit a response. I get all that and more courtesy of a gold band on my left hand, so I'll pass. Rants aside, the local energy compay (San Diego Gas & Electric) just sent folks around the county and changed each and every electric meter and gas meter. The new ones are somehow supposed to "talk to each other" according to the installer whom I drilled with questions (He thought all he had to deal with was backyard dogs!). At any rate, I asked him if this wasn't merely a ruse and what was actually going to happen was these new meters would somehow increase my energy costs. He assured me that was not the case, but when I asked him who he thought funded the project (and paid him), he started back-peddling. I think the bottom line here is pretty simple economics (thank you Peter). The world runs on a supply and demand system. When supply is up, cost is down and visa versa. That works in reverse too; the less we use, the more the cost. It sounds wrong, but think about it and it'll finally hit you like a brick. It doesn't matter if we use or don't use as far as the "economics" of it go. The earth was here before me and will be here after me. I'm just a sojourner here, camping out if you will, and what I decide to use or not is a personal choice. If someone out there thinks they have to somehow "control" my decision, I say let them think what they want. As long as that person is not telekinetic, their thoughts are meaningless to me! I "choose" to develop ways to make "free" (almost) power. Whether it works or doesn't work is meaningless; it's just me enjoying my time camping out on the planet. If I were to actually harness a source of "free" anything, someone would likely come along and confront me about it, but so far I haven't seemed to make much of a dent in things. So where's this going? It's going here: Look out for yourself as well as your neighbor. If you live in the bush, also look out for snakes! That's about it. What gain is there in worrying about what might or might not be? If your energy costs are driving you to ruin, live in a tent. Oh, one last item: Remember to smile a lot; a smile somehow magically smoothes things over. I think we as a race (as in human race) all need to laugh more. Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
The new meter's some are broad band , they transmit over the wire. Some transmit through the air and some are read with a hand scanner. some are scanned by the guy in a pickup just riding by. I know of two 2 cases where the new meters were faulty and had to be replaced. If you have your meter changed to one of the new ones and your electric bill goes up or down drastically call them and demand a meter change. FYI they can turn your power off from their office and never set foot on your property! URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Here is the latest off the news http://beforeitsnews.com/story/17295/Your_Electric_Gas_Bill_ Is_Going_Up.html http://beforeitsnews.com/story/17295/Your_Electric_Gas_Bill_ Is_Going_Up.html URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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