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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Vawt, Air Lift Water Pump?
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| swizzle Newbie  Joined: 27/01/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 3 |
I've recently found the youtube links on air lift water pumps and I think I may have found just what I've been looking for. I lease a claim every year in which I mine for Herkimer Diamond Quartz Crystals and its a small patch of land that you basically dig a deep hole into the rock. Well after a couple days of rain that hole can fill right up with well over a 1,000 gallons of water. I've been looking for alternatives to get the water out and I'm hoping what I wanna do will work but thought I should seek some profession advice first. Stage one is the 5 gallon bucket VAWT I'm planning on building. I saw a design that uses 4 buckets cut into half to make 8 wings. It was whipping pretty dang good and with quite a bit of force I thought it would work just fine to attach it to a pvc air pump to pump air down into the air lift pump in the deepest hole in my claim. The question I'm having is about the airlift pump system itself. They dont seem to have a lot of lift. My hole right now is 7ft deep and I'd need to lift the water at least 7ft to get it out of the hole. My goal is to eventually hit the 20ft mark which would be deeper then any claim in the entire mine so the pumping would get more intense the deeper I go. I plan on using 3/4" pvc and garden hose so I can move my pump throughout the claim as needed as time goes on. Is this possible? I'm open to suggestions and even willing to try to add another additional pump to cut the height needed to remove the water in half. Any thought and advice is welcome. Thank you for reading and have a great day. Jason |
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Jason I found air lift pumps are quite inefficient unless run by large compressor, in your position I would look at a 12 volt fleabay pump and solar panel or run a generator off your mill. Some of the pond electric pumps to run a small fountain may also be suitable, I have found they work ok to 12 foot without the spray head, also a small bilge pump for a boat works good but chews a bit more power. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| swizzle Newbie Joined: 27/01/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 3 |
I was hoping to do away with any electrical if possible. Seems the more I look into the air lifts the less hopeful I am that it'll work with my situation. What I want is to have dry ground to work on instead of kneeling in mud all day, thats why I want a pump that'll work when I'm not there. I have a generator and sump pump and a 2" gas powered trash pump. It'd just be nice to go up and start working as soon as I get there. I was also considering just a hand pump with a few check valves attached to the VAWT. Another thought was some kind of mister head that would spray the water straight up. If the winds blowing enough to spin the buckets at the time then a blast of water straight up into the air may have a good chance of blowing away on the same gust. I'm thinking the smaller the hand pump the less water pressure the VAWT would have to push. 2 check valves close together in the deepest hole should be enough to keep the flow going in the same direction. The vawt where I'd like to put it would be roughly 20ft away from the inlet so I'm not sure how good that would work. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Jason Air pumps I am familiar with inject air into the water in the vertical column to decrease the density of the liquid air mixture, the heavier un aerated water forces the lighter fluid up the column, problem is when the balance of the water in the column and water on the hole is achieved it all stops. The other type of air pump works like a steam injector and while it can be a high lift at high pressure, to pump it requires a lot of high pressure air, certainly more than your simple VAWT could ever deliver. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| swizzle Newbie Joined: 27/01/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 3 |
Thanx, I was afraid of that. I wont stopped trying though. I might never find a solution that works for me but it'll keep me busy in the meantime. :) |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
swizzle Hi and welcome to the 4m. I'm the "odd ball" here; all my windmills compress air. That being said, I'm an old hand at using air for all sorts of stuff. If it were I in your shoes, I'd look into using a small air compressor, either using a VAWT (like I do) and a swash-plate drive to push and pull an air pump or maybe a small fuel-driven air compressor. However you get your compressed air, all you have to do is build a pipe (3" diameter maybe) long enough to reach the bottom of the hole. Seal it at the bottom. At the top, build a cap that has what is called a "dip tube". That's a smaller-diameter tube that goes all the way to the bottom, but is cut on a "bias", so it touches the bottom, but remains "open". Install a ball valve on this pipe as it exits the top of the main collection tube. Next, rig a poppet valve, which opens the bottom of the collection tube and is operated by a long solid rod, which penetrates the top cap through a packing nut. You'll use this to open and close a hole, which will allow water to enter the larger tube. It'll have to seal tight enough as not to allow water to drain out -- see more below: You'll also need a valve at the top cap, much like that on a tire (schrader valve). It has a small spring-loaded check valve in it and allows compressed air to enter the larger tube, but not leave. So, what you do is lower the contraption to the bottom of your hole and push or pull the poppet valve open at the bottom as well as open the top of the big tube (at the ball valve). This will allow water to fill to its own level WITHIN the large tube. Secure the poppet valve at the bottom as well as close the ball valve at the top, then apply compressed air to the schrader valve. As the compressed air increases the pressure within the closed larger tube, its pressure will escape through the bias cut on the smaller-diameter pipe and the trapped water will be propelled to the top through the ball valve, which is then connected to a garden hose or some other system, which in turn carries the water AWAY from your hole. Just repeat the process as many times as it takes to remove all the water and it's a done deal. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
Not long after we bought the farm 10 years go my neighbour came over and told me there was 4 bore holes on the property done when they were looking to put in high voltage towers. Eventually I found all four of them and 3 had water in. So went and did some research on using air to lift water. I made up a crude setup using rural grade poly pipe, installed a bronze air baffle about a metre from the base then used my 12 volt air compressor to see if it worked. About 5 minutes later I had water pulsing out of the pipe and left it going for close to an hour and had a good amount of water come out. Enough to flood the driveway so I was sure it wasn't just ground water that had seeped in. Off memory I set the air to around 70psi as the hole is 50 metres deep atleast. I do plan to have another go at that bore but may need to make a 'roundtuit' first..... |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
In a crude form your idea can work, but as Bob as indicated there is limitations to its operation. Firstly my concern is the Vawt design, in most cases all Youtube videos are normally of a vawt with no loading, add loading and you get Zip from the mill, it basically stalls and remains stalled. Then there is the air column pump you refer to, its been around longer than Bob (and thats a long time), Mac suggested a 3 inch tube, thats just not functional, as you need the friction of the water surface tension on the tube wall to be great enough that the air bubble pushes a column of water upwards, and not the air bubble pass through the water column. Then you have static water pressure and hydrostatic pressures to deal with, a static pressure is a basic Utube where both sides of the Utube will be equal if fluid density is equal, meaning at 20 ft the fluid will be equal on both halves of the Utube and you only have a little way to push the water out. Hydrostatic pressure means the weigh of a column of fluid at any given depth, or the differential pressure of a U tube. If we do the math for a 20 ft column of Fresh water (not muddy or suspended solids in the water) it would be .......... 8.34 x 0.052 x TVD (true vertical depth) 8.34 x 0.052 = 0.43368 (PSI fer foot of TVD) 0.43368 x 20 = 8.67 PSI. At 20 feet depth you would need greater than 8.67 PSI to even push the air to the bottom of the water column. Years back i used air pumps to supply fluid to a hydroponic system, this basically use fish aquarium air pumps and a 10mm clear plastic tube (1/2 was too big). I suggest you do some tests yourself with this method and see what works and how, because it will save you many dollars for a larger scale system perhaps based on bad advice. Watch how the air bubble displaces the fluid in the clear tube as it migrates to exit, there is a lot you can learn and understand from the test. Then perhaps try you workshop compressor and see why that dont work for low hydrostatic pressures. As Bob eluded to, you are working with the laws of physics, and it will only work within the boundary of physics, but it will work when the balance of physics is within the design. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
swizzle Had a second thought about this. Here's a much simpler idea: If your bore is only about 20 feet deep, you could rig a piece of pipe of almost any diameter and attach a high-pressure air hose to its outside, then run it down (taping it every few feet to the outside of the pipe) and attach the hose outlet at the bottom of the pipe and run it in a "U" shape either under or through the end, so it winds up pointing up when the pipe is into the water. Cover the lower end of the pipe with some fine screen to keep the rocks, sand and crud out of the works and slam on the air; the more air, the better! This is what we call an "eductor". Directing high-pressure air from a narrow space into a large space will create a situation called the "venturi effect" and it will "suck" water from below, then blast it to the top of the pipe. At the top, terminate the end in the shape of another "U" so as to allow the water to fall through an air space into a pail or a ditch or whatever means you choose to direct it away from the hole. Easy, peasy! . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Mac, I would expect better thoughts from a plumber, as you have missed several key points, perhaps you need to do the test i suggested above, because its a perfect hydroponic pump, and as you have dabbled in hydro it should suit you. The key points is 1)....... the more pressure the better is wrong! it needs low pressure and high air volume to work, its a slight over balance in hydrostatic pressure needed, or basically a air bubble in a column of fluid migrating to surface. 2) Not some high pressure venture system, that in a column of fluid will just peculate the air bubbles though the fluid, and not lift the fluid. 3) As for various hight injection points ............ Well? .......the air will take the least path of resistance, so any lower than the first air injector, its a non event. Its a matter of pressure balance, to inject a bubble of air that has enough buoyancy to lift the column of fluid without it breaking the surface tension of the fluid, once the surface tention is broken then the bubble passes through the fluid rather than lift the fluid. There is a difference with this system of lifting water from 1000 Ft compared to 20 Ft, as at a greater depth the fluid/air can reach a higher velocity, due to how the air expands as the hydrostatic pressure progressively reduces up the column. At 20 Ft it aint worth calculating. Its also a balance of tube size to air volume/pressure, because if the tube is to large, the surface tension friction drag on the tube walls is greater than the air pressure applied, which result in the air passing through the fluid. (no lift) 4) a filter/screen will need to be 4 times the displacement area in volume to work, or the high pressure side will just hold crud on the screen, it needs to be a low pressure screen/filter to surface area. It can be done, just not how one would like it to work, as its a matter of understanding the basic science to how the system works, and not how we want it to work for our application. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
24 volt panel solar maximiser 24 volt bilge pump water sensor switch hole will be dry when you get there I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Pete This is a funny conundrum (?) we have here. It's kind of like the bumble bee. Science says the bumble bee can't fly, but one flew up my pant leg and stung me in the knee, so I know the "science", in this case at least, is wrong. Fact is, we used eductors in the US Coast Guard back in the day (like 45 years back in the day) to de-water sinking vessels. We used both water and air. The water would start things off and once the flow was established, we used high-pressure air to step it up a bit. Maybe I've forgotten something, but as I remember, it worked just fine. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
the bumble bee thing is a misquote. the original speech used the bumble bee as an example of the poor understanding of aerodynamics at the time. It was saying "if we cant prove that a bumble bee can fly, when we clearly can see that it does, our equations clearly need to more refinements" He was having a go at the mathematicians that thought the sun shone out of their fundamental orifice's, not the poor bee. The original post here is looking for a solution to empty the hole in the weeks before he is on-site, so that evaporation will completely dry it. He has a trash pump that would empty the hole in 10-15 minutes the morning he gets there but then he is still slopping around in muck while he is working. The only thing that I can think of that fits this criteria and wont burn out or damage the seals so it wont prime is a diaphragm pump, even then it needs a screen to protect the valves. And placing it at ground level and driving it from wind power means it needs a pipe, float and a foot-valve and perfectly sealed joins to function. It might lift 7 foot but it is not going to lift 20 foot. The only solution I see is a pump in the hole. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
From what I know Australian Bumble Bee don't sting, looks that there are ones that do. Number of documentaries show them flying aronud, trying to save honey while they were robbed. Sorry for side-tracking main issue. George |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member  Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
the solar panel and bilge pump sounds so easy but if this thing is too slick, what are the chances it will go missing when buddy is not around? |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Crew I should probably bow out here; I know everyone is sick of hearing about my love of VAWTs, but the thought occurred to me that a paristaltic pump at the end of a long shaft could be submerged at the bottom of the bore and left to pump a spurt of water every time the windmill's shaft spun around. Paristaltic pumps don't have much "sucking" power, but they can lift a hefty load and after all, that's what we have here. If you don't have a lathe and or a mill, you could maybe rob a pump off a commercial dishwasher; they're used to pump soap and sanitizer liquid as the washing cycle progresses. As for building a really powerful, lightweight and portable VAWT, just "message" me and I'll tell you how. Just a thought. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| kamdc Newbie Joined: 05/02/2014 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2 |
Gooday swizzle Kevin here , read your bit aout the 5 gallon drum which you cut into two halves etc etc ....may I ask you for that link on you tube as I am interested in this sort of application as well Thanking you Kevin |
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