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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Infrasound detector in SC magazine,
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Recently there was a interesting thread posted on this forum by member Mobi, who has first hand experience living very close to a industrial wind turbine. In Mobi's case, the experience has been a bad one, as his health has been affected while he is living at home in close proximity to the turbine. I have also met people who live near an industrial wind turbine, and the experience has been a very positive one for them. There is definitely a negative wind farm sentiment by many in the community, especially in Australia. But there are also strong positive wind farm views as well. Several years ago I had to give a lecture on wind farms, so spent many weeks researching the topic, including visiting a wind farm with a guided tour by the site supervisor. I learned that old negative views like massive bird kills, excessive ( audible ) noise, etc, were unfounded and just untrue of a modern wind farm. But I also learned about other concerns, like decreased land values, poor output regulation, visual pollution and the hot topic, infrasound. The infrasound topic has been raised by Mobi as he believes it has affected his health. I have no doubt the proximity to the wind turbine is affecting his health, but I'm not convinced its infrasound. Fair enough, there are many sources of infrasound in our environment, and some people can be affected by it. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, and I would be more than happy to link to peer reviewed research, but as far as I know, the connection between infrasound and ill health, or the so called "wind turbine syndrome" is not yet proven. I have no doubt infrasound is generated by wind turbines, as it is by traffic, trains, surf, your own heart, etc, and maybe these things, through infra-sound, could be making some people sick. But, like the debate about mobile phones causing brain tumors, or power lines making us sterile, we still need the proof before we can associate infra-sound ( and wind turbines ) with ill health. What I'm concerned about however, and the reason for this post, is wind farms are now see in the media as a source of ill health, due to the infrasound they produce, even though it is still not proven! In the March 2013 edition of Silicon Chip, the cover has a picture of a dark menacing wind turbine towering over their latest project, a infrasound detector. The caption says “Are wind turbines making you SICK?”. Inside the magazine the projects article has the same picture, flipped to look different, but still trying to give an unsettling view of the wind turbine. This sort of thing is common in media where they want to make something look evil, just like whitening the eyes of criminals. The cover is designed to grab your attention, and even if your not a regular reader of Silicon Chip, the wording and image will plant a seed in your mind. Wind turbines make you sick. In the editorial, the publisher Leo Simpson mentions his previous editorials where he has talked about the down falls of wind farms. Most of his comments are true, but narrow minded and one sided. Yes its true wind farms themselves can not provide base load power, and output can be very varied, but the statement “every wind farm needs an expensive gas-fired open cycle power station” is false. Many wind farms are coupled with hydro electric power stations to provide a consistent output and base load power. Some are even used to pump the water back up during times of excess wind. In the USA a new 36 megawatt energy storage system has recently been commissioned to store wind energy using batteries. Spain is a leader in using molten salt energy storage in its solar power stations, another source of energy that can not provide base load and has varied power generation. Just because its not done in Australia does not mean its not done. Leo also mentions “Now it is recognised that wind farms make people sick and that they should not be located close to where people live; not within a kilometer or more, in fact”. Recognised by who exactly? I do agree they should be no closer than a kilometer from any dwelling, probably more like 5km or more, same for any power station, like coal or nuclear. Well, maybe a little more for nuclear, about 100km will do for me. I feel its a shame that a interesting project like the infrasound detector is published as a device to test wind turbine infra-sound, because some people believe wind turbines make you sick. Next thing they will be publishing a mobile phone RF detector because "mobile phones give you brain tumors". What I do fear is the general public will pick up on this and associate all wind turbines, like farm windmills or small domestic turbines, with ill health. Unfortunately people like me and many other forum members depend on wind turbines to supplement their energy needs. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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norcold Guru  Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
I draw a similarity with the health problems caused by wind turbines to the health problems caused by tobacco smoking. In tobacco`s case it took many years of public debate, court cases etc before their was a consenus that tobacco smoking caused health problems. The tobacco industry fought a long campaign for decades, even to the extent of offering a $100,000 reward to the person who could prove tobacco caused cancer. I believe it was never claimed or maybe never paid. Tobacco smoking did not affect everyone who smoked in the same way, recall a journalist interviewing a group of people over 100 yrs old. One ladies grouch was that she had to give up smoking when she hit 100 becaus she could no longer afford the habit. Yet right from the beginning the proof was there, us humans can be easily lead by media etc etc. We are an animal of herd instincts, he who can afford the best loudest propaganda wins. Once the tide turned in tobacco`s case, even the farmers were painted as death dealing growers. Hopefully this doesn`t happen in wind turbines case, we need them, just sited sensibly. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Doctors and scientists have argued smoking is not good for the human body for decades. But the proof was never enough for a court of law to decide either way without any doubt, which is why we still have smoking today. We once though carbon monoxide was OK to breath so long as you didn't get a overdose, but we now know the effects accumulate over time. Yet we still smoke and drive cars. Infrasound is different, the claims of ill health are not yet backed by any peer reviewed science or medicine. Again, I'm happy to be proven wrong. I think the fluoride debate is a better comparison to the infrasound debate. Science and medicine argue its good for the general health of the community, though there are some negative effects of fluoride in our drinking water. I grew up on fluoride pills ( yuk! ) when I was young, and then fluoride in my town water, and at 47 have no fillings and all of my teeth still intact except for some wisdom teeth. But there are a lot of conspiracy theories going around, some crazy, with no scientific backing, and this has put pressure on water authorities to remove fluoride, even though the population has benifited in the past. Its a case of false claims planting seeds of fear, and the community ends up worse off. What century do we live in? The infrasound debate is similar. Its unproven, yet the public are been lead to believe its a real problem thanks to one sided media reports, and this could jeopardise a industry with real benefits for the community as a whole. If there is a problem with windmill induced infrasound, do the research, peer review it, and then change policy to site turbines better in the future. But until then, its not much more than a witch hunt. What if Silicon Chip released a flouride detector, because "Is the flouride in your town water making you sick?". Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Reminds me of greedy private Solar PV owners who are responsible now for electricity price rises. Golden plating infrastructure took some heat away, but as they say no matter how ridiculous claims are some mud sticks no matter what. George |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Nah, I`ll stick to the tobacco company analogy. Big business & big money(subsidised) plenty of resources to con the public. Backed by government same difference as tobacco companies.  We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I understand Glenns point of view, but i also see it as a moth blinded by the light. No one has said not to have commercial wind farms, it just a matter of where to best locate them to not effect the local residence, the SC project is a mere step in a direction to show the people its perhaps something they dont want to sign up to in their back yard, without some basic knowledge to the impact of these turbines and the effect on human life. Lets face it the wind farm developers will take the lower cost location over the no impact location with a higher cost in infrastructure for a lower impact location. Glenns view is not incorrect, (although of a non fully informed view) and perhaps a little arrogant towards the impact on the life of who are effected by the location of the wind farms. I started a long reply to Glemms last post but decided it was not best to post it for now. Sorry Glenn you posted your view twice on this matter and i can only agree to disagree with your view. Just remember no one has said not to build wind farms, its all about the locations of the infrastructure that is in question. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
The point of this thread was not so much the windmill sickness argument, but the miss leading information published in the media as "fact". I agree wind turbines should be located further away from people homes, as are coal burning power stations, nuclear, etc. I agree wind turbines can make some people sick, but I have my doubts its caused by infrasound directly. Sorry, but I need to see the science, someone give me a link and I'll post it. But I do believe in post traumatic syndrome, which can make you feel very ill, and can be trigged by a range of external natural and man made stimuli, like rain if your a flooding victim, or smoke if your a fire burns sufferer, and infrasound if you believe it will make you ill. What I object to is the way some media outlets can bundle words together like wind turbines, infrasound, and sickness, to create the impression there is a connection between the three, when in fact there is no proof of any connection at this time. And to push their point of view, they publish other missleading information, which can be proven as incorrect with 5 minutes of internet research. Instead of me trying to explain my views, I'll share this link... http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/mar/15/windfarm-s ickness-spread-word-australia Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
I'll add, the article I posted a link to mentions the health problems experienced by a farmer called David Mortimer in South Australia. The symptons sound identical to the health problems shared by our forum member MOBI in his post about his own experience with living close to a wind turbine. The reason is, MOBI and David Mortimer are the same person. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Haha, I just knew it, Glenn. Sorry about that ,, but I allmost fell off my chair ,laughing.. You gagged my previous post ,, would you now consider a re-think of my opinion? Thank You all, it's actually been an interesting post.. Bruce. Bushboy |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Bruce your posts were about forum members complaining and not building as many wind turbines as we once did. It was way off topic for this thread, and as I consider this an important thread, I removed your post and explained it to you in a PM. You post about the changes in the forum member base is valid, the forum has changed to cover more topics than it once did, at the suggestion of other forum members. But thats not the subject of this thread. Yes there are less windmill posts these days, but thats only because less members post about wind turbines. Overall the membership and posts are growing in number. Interests change with time. This thread is about my concerns of the media's use of flaky information to push a one sided view on industrial wind turbines. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
An extract from the link Glenn posted above. To better understand the valid side of Simon Chapmans report you should also look into the author himself, and to what level of involvement he has with wind farm developers, and the actual data he has based his report on, and who supplied the data to him. Its also worth following the money trail from wind farm developers to see where some of it ends up, then it might become a little clearer why reports are bias to no effects. Also worth checking what Chapman is actually a professor in, and how well he is skilled to make the reports he dose. Sometimes it just works |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Yes,, a good point , Downwind,(Pete).. I'm fairly compassionate for the families that lived in the adjacent properties, BEFORE the installation of windfarms. I've been to Windy Hill <mentioned in this forum by Glenns visit ,take a look . It appeared to me as the perfect setting for both the rural residents and the cattle grazing under the wind-generators. We , my wife and I , were very impressed with the very modern building of the towers, viewing areas, and most of all ,the dairy cattle grazing RIGHT under the towers... It was world class. Noise--- very ,very little.. A SWOOSH,SWOOSH, nothing that made me concerned--and remember --I live in a rural property,,so I really love peace.. So,, to get to my point ---- We, need these modern means of electricity generation ,AND , surprisingly ,, they only are able to be situated in windy enviroments.. . Don't know how to please you guys that are against wind-generators ,,, My solar panels on my roof look horrible ,,but there ya go ,, what do ya do ??? Bruce Bruce. Bushboy |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Interesting fellow Simon Chapman. Socialologist not a medical doctor, it appears. Appears he also was very heavily involved in the fight against tobacco. On the health side not the BIG money side, in that case. Aie, what is the truth? Methinks the evidence points to very serious health problems, lets build these things but well away from our residences just to be on the safe side. Is not that the sensible thing to do? or do we let the issue be muddied with cost arguements, flaky media etc etc. all those arguements also apply to coal, nuclear etc power plants and no one wants them in their back yard. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Agreed, wind farms should be located further away from homes. In the past, and unfortunately for some including MOBI, they have been built to close to peoples homes and this has fuelled the fire against them. You can bet any future nuclear power plant is now built further away from homes, about 30km further. I am very concerned the current hype about infrasound and its association with windmills and bad health could affect us small wind turbine builders, especially those who have a home made turbine on a small rural or town block with close neighbours. It would be a shame if complaints are made against us because the neighbour read an article about windmills and infrasound making them ill. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Interestingly, Qld Health recently reccomended they take a "precautionary approach" to the Tableland Regional Council re the Mt Emerald Wind Farm in NQ. It was reported in both the "Australian" and "ABC" news, but denied by QLD health. Google it, most confusing. Will follow this up with my local Councillor. The further one looks into this, the more contradictions become apparent. Why? Before MOBI, I`d dismissed these objectors as a mob of wingers, anti-development etc etc. Are we being fed these contradictions purposely? Whilst I will not be affected one way or the other at present, I feel there is a lot of misinformation out there on both sides. As it may affect our "play" mills, perhaps we should all be a little concerned. Not much we can do except try to get informed. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
I am not going to buy into the IWT scene until current ongoing testing is completed and evaluated (might be quite some time) However, I think everyone need not have any concerns of IWTs having a negative effect on our "back shed" fabrications including those manufactured for profit. They are chalk and cheese. We had our unit (OEM 500watt) tested and besides a very light whine at cut in, did not raise a 'blip' in the noise floor, inside the shed or out and certainly nothing inside the house 25Metres away. Keep having fun building them. I had to shut mine down today and short the windings as the wind was gale force, not quite strong enough to lower the mast though. Think I'll leave it off overnight as we are still in for unpredictable wind bursts. David M. |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Interestingly when trying the 3 links to the Senate inquiry(Social & Economic Impact of Rural Wind Farms.), listed on the Waubra Foundation website, come up with a page not found error. Have the pages been moved, expired or been deleted? We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
I don't know. It looks as though there has been some selective deletions in federal parliament. I trawled through handsard and found much of the information but not in the complete works that it previously was and with pages aparently missing????. It smells of tampering in Parliament House to me unless someone was doing archiving and got it wrong. Whatever happened, nothing should have been deleted or moved ever. I'll check with the Waubra CEO in a week or two - we are going to her 50th birthday. And for anyone who might be of the opinion that the Waubra Foundation is an anti-wind farm group - they are not. They investigate industrial noise across the whole spectrum of industries. David M. |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
An update on the Waubra Foundation web site links - I had a phone call from the CEO this morning and it seems that APH (federal parliament) has done some reshuffling and now anyone who had a link to APH documents probably has to re-do the links to the appropriate ones. Nothing sinister after all. Mind you I would have been very surprised if there had been anything under hand going on. The risk would be too great. Waubra will be updating soon. David M. |
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