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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Pumping water with air.
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
OK, I've got a block of land with a running creek. I need to get water to my planned house pad. Bore water is the common approach, its clean and usually drinkable, filtered through the rocks. I got a price to put down a bore, its a bit expensive at the moment, about $5,000 plus, depending on depth, 30 plus meters. What about the creek? Its running, but I will need to filter it before I can use it for drinking water. No problem, I have two 5,000 liter tanks. I'll pump the creek water into one, and use a filter to clean the water as it enters the 2nd tank. Tank 1 will be for toilet, irrigation. Tank 2 for drinking, washing, etc. How do I get the water up from the creek? Hydraulic ram, yeah, but I would prefer to use the creek flow for a small hydro generator. I do have the old farm windmill, which I had planned to use on the bore. I could use it to pump air, and feed the air into a air driven pump in the creek. The windmill will be about 100 meters away from the creek, and most likely 7 meters above the creek water level, so it wont be able to suck up the water. You can buy air driven pumps, about $2,600. Is there a cheaper way, or could I make one? Form what I've read, they have a chamber with a float inside. The chamber is under the water level. On start up, water enters the chamber through a check valve, then compressed air pushes the water out a 2nd check valve, up into my tank. When the water level gets low, a float closes off the incoming air, and opens a vent to let the air inside the chamber escape. The chamber refills with water, and either the same or another float switches the air valves back, and the cycle starts again. Now I'm drawing little diagrams of float operated air valves that flick open and close, but I wonder if there is something out there I dont know about that would work for this application. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Here's a basic pic. 
The whole thing is under water. A float slides up and down a push rod thats attached to a 2 way valve via its control lever. The push rod has two stops, one above and one below the float. The air valve has two positions, when down it lets air out of the chamber, so it fills with water. When up, it lets compressed air into the chamber, forcing the water out through the check valve. The spring is to snap the valve from one position to the other, and thats the bit I'm wondering if is commerically available, or I need to make something. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Just thinking of another way. A small tank to store the incoming air, and once it reaches a preset pressure, releases the air into the water filled chamber. This forces the water out and up the pipe. A bleed hole or float valve would then release the air in the chamber and let it fill up again. This could send some air up the water pipe, not really a problem, but could be a bit noisy at the tank, it would be farting! Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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Oscar4u Regular Member  Joined: 23/02/2011 Location: New ZealandPosts: 42 |
Hello Glen How much wind would you get at the creek? If you build a twelve or so meter tower? Seven meters is not much of a height difference. A windpump is very easy to make. See my recent photos. Cheers Oscar Oscar4u - for all your rotary cowshed repairs |
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Glen I would use the windmill you have restored and mount it up where the wind is good then run a cable down to the pump jack at the creek, I have used this before and is very effective simple and foolproof. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
Hi Glenn, What I did to test those 3" bores on my place was make up a pipe arrangement and used compressed air to raise the water. Basically all it is, a fine mesh filter to keep any crap out then just above the filter drill a hole in the gal pipe and put in a bronze air baffle (like what is used in pneumatics). Then at the end of the pipe I put some 1-1/2" green line poly pipe to come to the surface. Due to the depth being 60 metres I put 70 psi down and after about a minute water came pulsing out. The ides is the smaller the bubbles the greater surface area they give so better efficiency is with tiny bubbles. Some where in my backup files is a pdf of using air to pump water from the depths but in your situation you won't need a very high psi pressure to bring the water up. I'll try to explain in words how I made my setup. I got a 1 metre length of 2" gal pipe with screwed ends. On the lower end I put the fine mesh inlet filter. About 12" above the filter I drilled a hole to fit the bronze air baffle and used fitting to get it in the centre of the pipe. On the other end I used rural fitting to fit the poly pipe then fixed some 6mm SS wire on for raising it back out. Give that way a go mate, provided you can keep atleast 1/2 of the pipe in the water it should work a treat. Cheers Bryan |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Thanks for the idea's fella's, all good. I've been scribbling diagrams on bits of paper for the last day and I think I've come up with a pump that will work with one moving part. It should work in 300mm of water depth and pump as high and as quickly as the air pressure can force it. I'll see if I can build a prototype in the next couple of days. The long term plan is to build a windmill, probably a vertical made from 44 gallon drums, to drive an old air compressor I have. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Don`t know about using compressed air for pumping. Very inefficient. Why not a floating solar pump(just the pump to cut suction height.)Solar panels mounted on frame out of creek. Depending on the amount of water you want to pump those cheap($60-100) Chinese diagprahm pumps on ebay pump about 17l/min@40psi with 200watt of solar and controller(Choice Elect) and seem to give about 2years of service before the bearings need replacing or go with something like a Lorentz(expensive but the bees Knees). Or place your windmill on creek bank with pump as low as possible and run suction to creek possibly a floating suction valve. Could be just me Glenn but have not seen much success from compressed air water pumps. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| Oscar4u Regular Member Joined: 23/02/2011 Location: New ZealandPosts: 42 |
Hello Glenn what is to stop you putting the windmill at the creek? That seems the easiest. Cheers Oscar Oscar4u - for all your rotary cowshed repairs |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
The creek floods. Its been known to go over the bank and flow about 100m overland, fast flow. I would prefer not to have the windmill in flood water, incase a log takes it out or the footings get washed out. An 12v DC electric pump is a good idea, but I'm keen to see if I can make this pump work now. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Glen If you should decide on the displacement technique using compressed air, there is a ball valve that's called an "Ortega Valve" which might be handy. Basically it's a "T" valve and the handle shuttles water either left or right of the tee. To use it in your application, water could be let into the tank with the valve shifted to the left while at the same time a linkage uncorks an air vent. When the float signals the tank is full, the valve slides to the right letting in compressed air while another linkage opens the discharge port. One valve, two linkages, a 12-volt solenoid or two and a couple corks! 
Just an idea. . . . . . Mac (retired plumber) Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Hi Glen, I don't know you'r lands lay...but you should be able to locate an area of suitable ground water fairly close to the surface. It may not have a large capacity for perminate long term use, but generaly speeking the subsurfice ground layers are'nt level, leaveing bowl shaped depressions here and there that retain water. Water barrels from runoff...ofcourse you already have them, ect. ect. Kind reguards...Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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philb Regular Member Joined: 05/07/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 96 |
Glen, could you use a valve and handle off the water tank side of a toilet? It would be quite simple to rig. The chamber fills with air, operates the handle and lift the valve. When the residual air reaches the valve, it closes and resets. Sorry.I'm not good at drawings. philb |
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| Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
Hi Glenn, I did do a heap of research on bore pumping using compressed air and my simple method I described before worked purfect on all four bores. Now using the calc's to pump water up from 60 metres down I needed to use 60 psi. Now haw a good think about the method I described, it is used for commercial purposes for cleaning out new bores if a inlet filter isn't in place those tiny air bubbles WILL pump up rocks and another crap down the bore. If you don't have an air baffle I will be happy to send you one to try but really just to try the concept a basic fish tank aerator would do the same job. With NO moving parts to wear out this method is the best way to go provided the lower section can be immersed in the water. Tiny bubbles will push water up and give enough suction to keep the water flowing. With many other guys on the RE circuit using this method all I can say again is give it a go as it will be a cheap exercise. Regards Bryan |
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| Oscar4u Regular Member Joined: 23/02/2011 Location: New ZealandPosts: 42 |
Hello Bryan here in my province if there is a lot of sand it wears out the pump prematurely. The answer is to install a dirty big compressor and push the water up somehow. Would that be the same system as you are talking about? It defies logic to me how air bubbles can bring up water. If one blows air into a bucket the bubbles rise to the top and the water stays in the bucket. What am I missing? Thankyou Hello Glenn I am very biased towards a windpump (because it is all I know and they are very cheap and easy to make). Having the pump a hundred meters from the river would probably still work if you had a 40 or 50 mm inlet pipe. Are there many rocks in the ground? If you dug an ditch is it likely to fill with silt in the next flood? what is the hight difference between creek and where you want the windmill? My poxy home made mill has sucked water from seven meters down or so in a bad drought. Cheers Oscar Oscar4u - for all your rotary cowshed repairs |
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Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
HI Gizmo You might reconsider on the ram pump, From what I have been reading its going to require a great deal of mechanical designing and maintenance to keep the system functional. The Mill, the Compressor, the air pipe to the Pump, the valves and other mechanical linkage.to build the pump. and in all cases the water pipe to your Tanks. The Hydro ram was made for your exact application. Have a look at this You could build one with a few pvc fittings. I'll Shut Up now.---------Cheers Roe Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
[Quote=oscar4u] It defies logic to me how air bubbles can bring up water. The difference between an air-driven bore and a bucket of water with an air hose dangled inside is the bore has a casing (pipe if you will) and as the compressed air expands and rises, it pulls with it chunks of water all trapped within the confines of the tube. It's the same principle as works in an aquarium side filter. Compressed air causes the water to actually rise up higher than the tank level and gravity pulls it back through the filter. Inside a very long chamber, like a well casing, the closer the compressed air gets to atmospheric pressure (the top of the water column) the more it expands and the more it displaces the water it is surrounded by. Since there's nowhere else to go but up, that's exactly what it does. I think if you were to dribble some food coloring dye into your bucket while the hose bubbles, you'd see it begin to swirl in the direction of the rising bubbles as they create an upward current or flow. It's happening in your bucket right now, but you have no point of refrence from which to judge movement, so it looks like nothing's happening, but in reality, it is. Hope that helps explain it a bit. Edit: Since we've been chatting on the phone of late, I thought I should clarify something. What I explained here is NOT what we talked about on the phone. On the phone, we were talking about what Glen has posted in his picture. The only difference between his picture and what I told you on the phone was that I'd have run the water-delivery outlet from the bottom of the tank with a bias-cut end and welded or sealed at the top of the tank. When high-pressure air is introduced into the filled (with water) tank, as the air expands, it forces the water through the exit pipe, drawing from the bottom of the tank. When al the water is gone, a sensor or float would then switch off the air supply and allow the tank to refill by gracity. What I explained in the first reply above was specifically in answer to your question concerning air bubbles. Hope that clarifies it. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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