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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Feeding your micro turbo
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Greenbelt Guru  Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
A ram pump My design but any is fine if it works. another way to charge batteries 
Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Interesting, but how does it work  ?
What makes the "cycle valve" move? I assume this has to be just at the right depth, can you indicate where the stream water level would be? Thanks Klaus |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
The Ram pump is very well named,Water is allowed to gain momentum and then suddenly it has nowhere to go, this Inertia generates high pressure for a moment. I have drawn a operational diagram, hope this helpsjavascript:AddSmileyIcon  
Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
The Rampump is generally set up on the creek bank. a 2- 3 meter drop in the lead in pipe will make a good setup. should have a minimum of 60 feet lead in , this assures a good mass of water in motion. you can google for lots of info. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
thanks, I get it now. Very clever 
The long lead in is the key to its working... There was another pump shown on the "inventors" program here a few years ago. It looked like a disk sitting on the creek bottom - no lead in pipe. It was also supposed to lift small water quantities to a large height. They never said how it worked, I'm still wondering... Klaus |
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GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Greenbelt, can you give any data on cycle valve operating frequency, and the relative volume of water required to pass through the cycle valve compared to the volume of water pumped. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Yes , The moving water is the key. The flexiblity of this device is amazing. If you have a stream with plenty of water but only 1.5 meter head within your property then a 15 CM. lead in pipe with pump valves to match could give you 5 meters of head (guess) and lots of water. Below is a link to, a build it yourself instructable, This one is small but obviously does a big job well, also cheap. The disk type pump you mention may have been a vapor pressure system, as I recall the system used heat absorbing paint on pipes exposed to the Sun to generate a pressure for moving the water. I never did understand the raft and disk in the pond. Perhaps it was a barrier to keep out the leaves and driftwood. it did not work. http://www.instructables.com/id/Worlds_greenest_water_pump/ Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
from your lack of first hand info, I can only assume you have not made any operating units, or the ratio of water needed to boost the height is high. I suppose this would not matter if the creek flowed all year, and the energy went past regardless. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Gordon; The pump cycle is generally close to 1 second but is variable with different head pressures The length of the lead in pipe the working pressure and volume of water pumped per cycle. Example; A large pump with a 2 meter head and long lead in pipe with a low pressure output, say 20 psi.(you work out the kilogram sq..) I'm not well schooled for metrics, this kind of setup will have a longer cycle time because water will flow into the air chamber for a longer time before the back pressure will equal the ram pressure., more water pumped per cycle. The waste water is actually quite small when the pump is adjusted correctly. The head water surges into the valve chamber forcefully and the cycle valve closes quickly loosing about a half liter or less. there are a lot of variables that effect the output. but as a ratio about 2.5 to 1 loss. If water is to be pumped to 30 meters or more the waste water will increase because the pump will need to be adjusted to hold the cycle valve open longer so that maximum velocity is achieved in the lead in pipe. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Tinker More about A RAM PUMP; A seemingly mysterious device with the uncanny ability to pump water without a motor, crank,weights or any visible means of power. Performance; The pump cycles about once per second. An average size pump will output 1/2 liter each cycle, depending on the pressure head and length of the lead in pipe. There are 86400 seconds in one day, That is 86400 / 2 = 43200 liters of water. = 10800 gallons and deposited as high as 30 meters above the stream it came from. Economy don't get better than this.! How does it work.? Imagine a 2" diameter X 60 feet long solid steel bar moving along peacefully at 1 meter per second ,Bang ! hits A BRICK wall, Now think of this as a rod of water not nearly as heavy but still a non compressible solid. The cycle starts with the cycle valve open, this gives freedom to the water in the lead in pipe. The Head water on a downhill slope accelerates, the light spring tension on the cycle valve can no longer hold it open as water surges through the limited opening. The valve slams shut (brick wall) there is 60 feet of moving water in the pipe that must stop instantly, aint gonna happen, the pump has another valve that is spring loaded closed, The CHECK VALVE, when the cycle valve slams shut the instant pressure rise opens the check valve and water surges into a temporary receiver where trapped air will compress and cushion the pressure shock wave. When system pressure and ram pressure have balanced, The check valve closes, The compressed air moves the water on to its destination and the water lead in pipe recoils slightly, creating a moment of pressure below atmospheric value, this permits the cycle valve to open with a little help from the adjustable tension spring. the pump is now configured to start a new cycle. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi tinker, don't forget to do an energy balance to calculate how much water is needed to create the increase in water pressure. A 2m head in the lead pipe, to produce 30m lift, will require 15L of water to flow through the lift valve for every 1L water pumped to 30m, at 100% efficiency for conservation of potential energy, and more to allow for kinetic energy losses. The ratio 2.5L produced at the higher pressure for 1L loss does not gel with me. I have heard of ram pumps used to supply drinking water quantities to a header tank, to allow a gravity fed reticulation. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Gordon I do not see any reference to 30 meter lift with a 1 liter loss,{From my reply.) sorry for the jagged format, I accidently bumped the post button on my previous reply. A large pump with a 2 meter head and long lead in pipe with a low pressure output, say 20psi.(you work out the kilogram sq..) I'm not well schooled for metrics, this kind of setup will have a longer cycle time because water will flow into the air chamber for a longer time before the backpressure will equal the ram pressure., more water pumped per cycle. The waste water is actually quite small when the pump is adjusted correctly. The head water surges into the valve chamber forcefully and the cycle valve closes quickly loosing about a half liter or less. there are a lot of variables that effect the output. but as a ratio about 2.5 to 1 loss. The above is in reference to a large pump with a low lift having a 2 meter head and a long penstock, lead in pipe. If water is to be pumped to 30 meters or more the waste water will increase because the pump will need to be adjusted to hold the cycle valve open longer so that maximum velocity is achievedin the lead in pipe. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Gentlemen, thank you for explaining workings of this this pump to me. My question was for a purely academic interest, I like to know how things work. Unfortunately, living in the middle of suburbia, there are no handy streams nearby I could plant such a pump in Klaus |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
No problem; My original post was intended to show a possible method of making a few watts of power. Ranchers and farmers in America in the 1800's made use of ram pumps to irrigate and provide water for the livestock, the first ones came from Europe. they are much more robust than some would have you believe. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
I think this is called a trombe or something like that. Mother Earth News did a lot with this in the early '70s and I think if you went to their Web site, you'd be able to "search" through their archives. I remember reading plenty of "technical" and "hands-on" information back in the day. Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
This is sometimes called a "HYDRAM" or "HYDRAULIC RAM" Folks who are Interested in this subject should take a look at this link, http://www.howtopedia.org/wiki-en/?title=How_to_Make_a_Hydra ulic_Ram_Pumps%3F&printable=yes#How_a_hydram_works Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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