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Forum Index : Solar : Solar Farm Practicallity
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All I have noted Norcold's interest in a solar farm and have crunched some figures on the prospect, and at the rates on offer at the moment I cannot see it as a practical venture, all things accounted for there would be a loss. This is of course caused by the purchase structure of the energy retailers and the need for them to make a profit, which of course they need to do to survive in the commercial world. To make a workable proposition the power generated by solar providers would need a restructure of the retail / wholesale power costing, allowing the solar farm to to sell direct to the retailer at a price per KW tied to their retail price at a rate of 50% this would allow them a 100% profit margin on purchased electricity, which is not to be sneezed at in a commercial sense, as the 4 -6 cents on offer now is an insult to the intelligence of the solar farmer. This would wipe the multi-teer profit system the government has in place now and would make the powers that be take a serious look at doing some good for green house gas reduction. This is a flea bite in saving the world while Australia exports millions of tonnes of coal so others can do the polluting for us. There is a cry that solar cannot supply base load power, but this is only partly true, using old technology NIFE cells made to order in a huge size the storage capacity issue is at least partly solved without going into expensive and dangerous hydrogen storage. NIFE cells last a long time and are fully recyclable, not high tech but a useful storage media. This would allow the supply of power at high load times while allowing battery charging in lower consumption times, and allow them to sell their off peak power as they do now without draining batteries. Wind power is handy while it is there but the sun is a damm sight more reliable, but there is a place for both. Just think what sort of a solar farm and battery storage bank you could build for the cost of one of these huge windmills. Any comments All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Hey Bob, Is interesting in this sunny country they aren`t supported more. 4 cents /Kwhr up here, but if you find a purchaser and they are there you can get over 20 up to nearly the retail price of 26. Unfortunately the purchasers are in more populated areas. 4 is what ergon apparently pays for their power from coal and that is what they offer to solar not sure about wind as yet, I smell a rat. But you also have LGC`s Large Generator Certificates which is around $28/Mwh currently. That is offered by the Clean Energy Council (read Govt)sort of and purchased by those who use dirty fuel to allow them to continue. Actually its on the open market apparently. Whoops pushed the post icon. Down your way the utilities offer up to 8c, in some cases. I cannot sell to them. Is all to do with the dollar of course but I do think solar is being treated as the poor cousin, and is not on a level playing field with wind. Will be interesting I`m meeting with a bank rep and a group of interested parties next week, and I`m going to test the waters there, see if I can find out why the money is following wind. I`m out if wind is all they`ll go with. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
I really don't think the Clean Energy Council is a government body, do you really mean Regulator or similar body. One thing that puzzles me, how does site footprint fit, as I understand it, to replace one modern wind turbine would take about 16,000 solar panels. In my navy days, at a "spooks" "radio station", we had a 75KW no-break running off NiFe batteries and they filled a couple of racks of a double garage sized room on all 4 walls. That gave us about half an hour to get computers powered down etc. Translating that up to a megawatt or more, that is a bloody lot of batteries? Is it worth considering thermal solar in conjunction with PV for a more consistent supply? Just wondering is all. David M. |
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| paceman Guru Joined: 07/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1329 |
Maybe - looks like we might at least get to try solar thermal here: Alinta-ARENA Greg |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Clean Energy Council, whilst I know sweet bugger all about them, is it funded by the govt? Or should I say us, the tax payer. But as I get further into this proposed project I`ll find out, no doubt. Have about 100 acres I can spare for solar,(so save up your dollars, need a lot  ) yes solars footprint is large but then so is the OZ deserts and arid country. But guess it is something that may be a problem down the track. Of interest what does each of you 4M members think of "wasting" acres of land with solar? Myself I have no problem, I don`t see them as an eyesore or feel they would be wasting land providing its not feasible crop land.We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Mobi, If you check the list of members of the Clean Energy Website. I suspect we are both right and wrong, looking down that list of members might be just a few dollars of tax payers there. Thus my (govt) sort of in my original post. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
I assumed you would be dealing with one of the green power schemes where customers opt in to pay a premium for RE generated power. It is sold as an alternative to roof top solar for those with housing that is not suitable (flats, shading etc)for those that "want to do their bit for the environment" Not sure of the payment structure for the generators or how it is managed through the energy brokers and the grid. http://www.greenpower.gov.au/About-Us/Who-Is-Behind-GreenPow er/ these guys might know the ins and outs of how it all happens. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Anteror, You have a very valid point about our democracies when you used the share market as an example. The share market and its evolution(read corruption) over time certainly has portrayed human greed. Whilst this has some relevance to the thread you posted it in I think if you really wish to speak about such, test the waters and start a new thread on the subject. Because I invested in the share market and did very well over the years, I feel it would be somewhat hypocritical to knock it and from my understanding of your post you are in a similar position. But I do agree it is moving away from its original purpose. Apologise for high jacking your thread Bob. But am finding some relevance as I bog myself in my project. Yahoo2, There are many sites that have info, probably visited 100 or more over the last month or so, the one you attached included. As I see it the very first hurdle to be climbed is finding a customer up here in the north, and that is what will make or break it. Solar is seen as only offering 8/24 power whereas wind is seen as offering continuous, I say seen, reality being somewhat different. Perception is all, am becoming very sceptical seems it is more important to be seen to be doing something. But that is not new. But many thanks for all suggestions. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
For those that have their own panels installed they can actually save money. Once the system is paid for they are then way in front and as grid power price goes up this will only increase. So who is profiting from the premium renewable power option? There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
Hi Guy's, This has been done on a big scale in the past and theres no reason it can't be started on a small scale and built up over time. What is this ????? Parabolic troughs and generating steam to power age old designs of steam engines. So instead of using coal to generate steam the sun is used and eh if one lives near the ocean allocate some land, let the sun evaporate the water leaving salt then use the salt heated by the steam is keep the system going 24/7. Out of box thinking but eh if solar is only 20% max efficient and every man and his dog are doing it whynot do something and keep it quiet until proven then hit market where it needs it..... |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Spain has probably the world largest thermal solar plant but, of course, they are broke now along with unused airports and half-finished villas. Thermal solar is about ten to 15 times dearer than coal. Coal was about 2 USc/kWh produced, wind was about double or triple, solar PV also dearer and thermal solar the dearest. In WA we can get 40c/kWh and as the gov. threatened to drop that there was a political storm and they kept that subsidy, which of course we all have to pay for in higher power bills; WA lost its AAA credit rating. The bean counters will ensure coal will remain king, especially now where America is burning more "fracked" gas, the coal prices have dropped and, e.g. Germany is building more coal-fired plants as they are still committed to stop nuclear power generation. China is building one coal-fired plant/week. My 60,000 blue gums I planted will love the extra CO2; CSIRO fact, but not the grasses (wheat, etc.) and they are not going to enjoy the heat in WA! 44 degrees in Perth, 55 houses burnt and 800 mm of rain a few years back! 800 is the min. for blue gums. Why am I supporting nuclear?? I prefer to be roasted quickly rather than slowly! Best disregard these comments! Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All Good to see so much interest in the thread, many and varied views and systems but all looking for an answer so that is good. While my proposal seems pie in the sky, it has some merits if a large number of small farms say 100 KW are distributed around the grid instead of going for mega plants with the same transmission losses in the present system. A small plant of say 100 KW is achievable as an investment and would yield a reasonable return on investment and a reasonable wage for the investor, assuming that they have a tract of land that isn't suitable for agriculture. On the battery back up system, even with present lead acid technology a small extension to base load is possible, no sense to carry that through to times when off peak power is available. The other issue we face is wasted power, I visited a friends house recently and noted that the whole house was lit with down lights HQ heat producers that require more air conditioning to carry the heat away and there where four plazma flat screen TV's running, and he was complaining that the 3 KW solar system he fitted didn't cover half his power bill, I wonder why. Maybee his bill will go high enough to mahe him change his energy usage. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
Were you thinking of a single grid with 100kW input nodes or individual "gridlets"? Each has its own problems. Mind you, 3 flat screen plasma "room heaters" I think is a bit over the top. More money than sense? David M. |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
I started my proposal with a 100Kw system without need for partners, unfortunately that HV line I have to feed into requires (not sure exactly why as yet) a 1Mw or larger 3 phase system. Out of my league without forming a syndicate but still being investigated, not so much by me but bank and interested parties. Being forced to be around the phone(no mobile reception here) is holding up other projects read gonnados. If it were in the "wet" wouldn`t be bad but that is late in coming. Only empties flying over at 20 knots, empty clouds that is. That fellow with the 3 Plasma`s etc wasn`t Al Gore was it We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Mobi The access to a feeder line 3 phase capable of handling 100 KW is a prerequisite of the solar plant and from discussions with people in the know that would be most rural feeders except for SWER lines, it would require a feed in transformer at the feed point at cost to the farmer. I had a look at my feed transformer and it is rated at 50 KW and serves 2 properties. You can be sure we would meet stiff opposition from the government and power retailers to get these plants approved as Norcold said they want a 1Meg system to feed into his power line, this is for sure a stumbling block put there to prevent a more practical application of usable technology and would limit the application to once again the big money players. What ever we try to do will be hounded by problems some from a technology point of view but the worst will be from government and commercial interests as both are only paying lip service to reducing pollution. No Vic not Al gore just a dumb average citizen who is hell bent on spending all his hard earned money on keeping up with or surpassing the Johnses. By the way I forgot to mention the two 5 HP reverse cycle split systems and the swimming poolpump and filter system. Even small systems could help a bit as I recommended to my relatives to go solar with a 3KW system in all three cases it is working out well for them. 1. 3 bedroom home electric cooking and a 2 KW air conditioner. feed in payback $500 per quarter. 2. 4 bedroom home with pool electric cooking and a 3 HP air conditioner. break even in winter and a $100 per quarter in summer. 3. 4 bedroom home and office 5 HP air conditioner electric cooking fitted this summer with a $150 rebate on first bill. If these had been 5 KW systems the in feed would have been a worthwhile amount. These are on the old feed in scheme at 60 cents KW new installations would serve to eliminate bills but returns would be much less. Point being that if there are enough small systems around it would help. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Hi madness, I think you are confusing practical and common sense with what makes a business case. It is easy to explain the business case for something like bottled water when you factor in peoples emotions and prejudices towards water. It has nothing to do with price or supply and demand. You can protest about the benefits of water from the tap till you are totally dehydrated, it wont change peoples perceptions. I think the first greenpower schemes started out from buyers groups, it might be an idea that is well past its use by date, I dunno. I had a look at some figures of some hotels, they were complaining about excessive power bills, I was staggered to see that their broker had locked in a price for them supposedly UNDER the current cost of supply. I talked to the brokers and they said they just got lucky, there was a quota and a deadline, right place, right time. (they also suggested the hoteliers stop complaining)  some of the weird clauses in some power contracts for irrigation I have seen, can be difficult to explain rationally too.I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
From Clean Energy Council 9th Jan, 1.15 million household have solar PV installed. Great news that must be helping. Titbit- recall reading a newspaper article after 9/11, that the USA govt are pushing individual house solar to lessen the effect of terrorist attacks on major power stations. Perhaps those 4M members from the US could report on whether that is so. Wouldn`t be much use here as apparently all grid tie solar households are off when the grid is off. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
If somebody wants clean power maybe they are better off investing in a Solar/Wind farm to offset there carbon emissions/reduce their power bill. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
It has been suggested home owners with PV solar and who can afford it are the "better off" ones and are being subsidised by the "not so well off" ones, who have to pay higher power prices to make up for the subsidy. We must all do our part to stop CO2 but when I calculated a friend's payback time without considering interest on money that could have been invested or using net present value calcs. I came to a 15 year payback period. I wonder if all the companies on the net, which sell you car stickers claiming you have planted trees to offset carbon are actually planting them? As I have planted 60,000 I thought of the same cash flow maximisation scheme and I can even place the contributors name on a row of trees to give him a warm feeling! I believe Norway sent $1 billion to Indonesia to stop changing rain forests into palm oil plantations in Kalimantan but the logging goes on! Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Yes as I`m finding out the alternative energy market is all about getting to that lower emission target on time regardless that it is just short term, the figures being quoted that put solar below wind are starting to show to be a little rubbery. However there will be positives and that we must strive for. It seems true that those who put panels up are being subsidised by those who didn`t both by the taxpayer and by the increase in power price, but they can be got for nix and then pay off on the never never. Also to move towards alternative energy in this way may prove to be a wise move by the government. It is the aftermath of the power price rises that may bring about a big increase in the cost of living, not from the direct cost of power but the price food etc must go up if the producers costs increase. Thus we enter a high inflationary period, something the current financial wizes think they`ve overcome. Our faith in them was somewhat tainted by the GFC, they didn`t see it coming. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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