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Forum Index : Solar : Born again N00B questions.
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vk4akp Newbie  Joined: 17/02/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
Hi guys, I've been surfing the net the past week looking for info without much luck. Today I figured what better place to come then an enthusiasts forum for info. So here I am. :) I've done a little bit with solar and Ham radio many years ago and now with prices being more affordable I'm looking at building up a system that I can add to over time. Initially I'll be setting this up at home but eventually my hope is to set up a couple of small shipping containers as a basic retreat out in the country with solar, wind, water tanks, nature loo, etc. The system will be all 12VDC based. I know this means a lot less efficiency when using inverters to go back to 240VAC but over the years when shopping for items I have always tried to purchase 12VDC powerable products. Even now most of the items running in this room have had their plug packs thrown away and are run directly from one 40A switch mode power supply (Powertech MP3080) currently sitting at 13.7VDC 1.6Amps. (When I start turning TV's, radios, etc on that of course can rise considerably! lol) My hope is that by using mainly 12VDC appliances and avoiding all this conversion of voltage and current type (AC/DC) up and down all the time I am getting more efficiency as all these conversions are lucky to be 80% efficient at the best of times. Another point of interest is that I would like to have a monitoring system in place. I would like to be able to monitor and send back to a computer for analysis statistics on what power is being generated, used, battery voltage, going back into the grid, and so on. Preferably via WiFi. Are there any monitoring devices available currently commercially or DIY that anyone knows about that does this sort of thing? I'm also looking for recommendations on solar panels. Are there many options yet for panels that have the transistor junctions so that any shaded cells on the panels are bypassed? Last time I looked this was something Canon were doing with their UniSolar models. As I add panels I'd like to spend somewhere around $300 at a time. What sort of Wattage can I expect for that sort of money per panel these days, and what brands / models would you guys recommend. Also interested in wind turbines. Recommendations on makes / models / where to buy etc. I have been looking at one of these http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180592542 976 Anyone familiar with these? Comments etc? What's the story with panel connections these days? It used to be a junction box with screw terminals on the back of the panels. Now I see is it MC3 / MC4 connectors? Whats the norm on the back of panels now? Or are these just for the high voltage back to grid panels that operate at over 200 Volts. Also battery and regulator options please. I'm not scared of a bit of DIY if it can help save on costs considerably I'm all for it. And as mentioned I want to do this in sections and expand further later in sections. My budget is usually around the $300 mark each step of the way. Any good sites or groups to go to please also let me know. (I'm located in Ipswich. [25 mins from Brisbane]). TNX, Ken .-.-. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Ken Sounds like you are well on the way with your planning. Initially I'll be setting this up at home but eventually my hope is to set up a couple of small shipping containers as a basic retreat out in the country with solar, wind, water tanks, nature loo, etc. SOUND GOOD The system will be all 12VDC based. FOR A BASIC SYSTEM 12 VOLT IS OK AS YOU POINT OUT THERE ARE LOTS OF 12 VOLT APPLIANCES AVAILABLE NOW, BUT CONSIDER A 24 VOLT SYSTEM IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT A SERIOUS SYSTEM IN THE FUTURE AS THE 24/12 VOLT SWITCHMODE POWER REDUCERS ARE QUITE EFFICIENT (When I start turning TV's, radios, etc on that of course can rise considerably! lol) My hope is that by using mainly 12VDC appliances and avoiding all this conversion of voltage and current type (AC/DC) up and down all the time I am getting more efficiency as all these conversions are lucky to be 80% efficient at the best of times. GOOD POINT Another point of interest is that I would like to have a monitoring system in place. I would like to be able to monitor and send back to a computer for analysis statistics on what power is being generated, used, battery voltage, going back into the grid, and so on. Preferably via WiFi. GORDON AND PETE ARE DOING A MONITORING SYSTEM TO COVER ALL ON THE FORUM SO YOU CAN BUILD THAT YOURSELF, THE QLD GOVERNMENT HAS A $50 OFFER ON A MONITOR THAT IS WIRELESS AND WORKS WELL, I HAVE HAD ONE FOR 12 MONTHS NOW 240 VOLT ONLY SO TO DO YOUR DC SYSTEM ITS BACK TO BUILD YOURSELF ONE. Are there any monitoring devices available currently commercially or DIY that anyone knows about that does this sort of thing? JAYCAR HAS A KIT AVAILABLE SOME HAVE USED. I'm also looking for recommendations on solar panels. MOST OF THE REASONABLY PRICED PANELS ARE ON FLEABAY, ALL MADE IN CHINA, AND THEY WORK, YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN BUT ONLY A LITTLE CHEAPER THAN BUYING THEM, FOR YOUR $300 A PANEL YOU SHOULD GET 80 TO 100 WATT 12 VOLT PANEL Also interested in wind turbines. Recommendations on makes / models / where to buy etc. I have been looking at one of these http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180592542 976 Anyone familiar with these? Comments etc? MY EXPERIENCE WITH WIND TURBINES FROM FLEABAY IS THAT YOU NEED TO DO A BIT OF WORK TO SORT THEM OUT AS BEARINGS ARE NOT ALWAYS THE BEST, AND THE ELECTRONICS IS GENERALLY HOPELESS ON THE CHEAPER ONES. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU CONTACT PHILLM ON THE FORUM TO GET YOU GOING AS HE HAS BASIC MILLS AND BLADES FOR DIY. MY NEXT PROJECT IS A LG MOTOR CONVERSION SO THAT IS WORTH A LOOK .-.-. 
MY AIM IS TO MAKE A MILL FOR $300 SO IS AROUND YOUR BUDGET PRICE. What's the story with panel connections these days? ALL THE ONES I HAVE PURCHASED HAVE THE HIGH VOLTAGE FITTINGS WHICH I CUT OFF AND USE TERMINAL STRIPS FOR CONNECTION IN SERIES OR PARALLEL AS REQUIRED Also battery and regulator options please. THERE ARE SOME SLA STANDBY BATTERIES COMING UP ON FLEABAY AT TIMES MOST ARE 5 YEAR REPLACEMENTS BY COMPUTER AND GOVERNMENT SOURCES, I FIND THAT WHEN FITTED WITH A DESULPHATOR THEY WILL CONTINUE ON FOR A FEW MORE YEARS, ALSO A GOOD NEW GEL CELL DEEP CYCLE IS IDEAL BUT EXPENSIVE, CHEAP BATTERIES FROM REPCO 12 VOLT 45 AH WILL WORK OK FOR TWO OR THREE YEARS IF FITTED WITH A DESULPHATOR AND ONLY DISCHARGED MAX 40%, A FEW IN A BANK WILL GET YOU GOING CHEAP BUT NOT IDEAL FOR LONG TERM USE. I'm not scared of a bit of DIY if it can help save on costs considerably I'm all for it. And as mentioned I want to do this in sections and expand further later in sections. My budget is usually around the $300 mark each step of the way. YOU WILL HAVE LOTS OF FUN DOING THIS STUFF BUT IT ISNT CHEAP SO BUY THE BEST QUALITY YOU CAN AFFORD AS QUALITY OUTLASTS THE MEMORY OF WHAT IT COSTS. Any good sites or groups to go to please also let me know. (I'm located in Ipswich. [25 mins from Brisbane]). I AM LOCATED 80 KLM FROM YOU SO IF YOU NEED A HAND WITH THINGS DROP ME A PM. ALL THE BEST BOB Foolin Around |
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| vk4akp Newbie Joined: 17/02/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
Hi Bob and co. Sorry about the late reply. Well lots to talk about. I will have to do a lot of reading on the forum here. Looks like there is a lot of good info to be had. Do you have a link for that Gov $50 monitor? And yes I am always concerned about quality when buying from China. But I will probably still start out with one of their wind turbines as they look the part for suburbia and I'll get less wingers in the neighborhood. I've looked at the fisher & Pykel turbines before. It's a great idea and lots of people do it. Maybe one day when I don't have to worry about what neighbors say about what I put up in the air. I get enough questions now about the antenna's. LOL. The LG motor project will be interesting. I've been looking on fleaBay and it looks like I can get 120 Watt panels for about $335 or 200 Watt ones for $580 with out looking too hard. I'm just trying to justify to myself to spend in bigger chunks now for the 200 Watt panels. However I do also wonder if it's smarter to go for the smaller ones in case of failures. It's not as big a loss then if you loose a panel?? With batteries I can't help but to wonder about a bit of DIY there. After all they are only lead which is dirt cheap to come by. Batteries are so expensive considering what they are made of. I'll look for the Gordon & Pete monitoring system on the forums. That will interest me greatly. I'm also considering replacing the radio groups web and PBX server here with a Mini ITX Atom based board to help cut running costs. I'm just not sure if the Atom will have enough horses to run everything. But that's being discussed in another forum. LOL. I looked you up in the database. Your not far away at all. If you feel like a chat some time I'd love to have a look at your set up and what your up to with your tinkerings. .-.-. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Vk4akp I get your point on the turbines, but be aware that you will need to do a bit of work on them to get a reliable machine, bearings are suspect, regulators are unreliable and blades need a lot of work, in my experience anyway. The little mill I got from Phill was at a reasonable price for the whole lot and if run as intended 500 watts in star would be a real winner. It is small and if painted duck egg blue it would nearly disappear into the skyline. The climate smart home service is the one I got it through 13 20 40 or www.climatesmarthome.com QLD Gov, they fitted a 3 phase radio link monitor for me and will fit fluro globes as well and do an assessment for $50 "good value". The 80 / 100 watt panels are good value and are as cheap as you can build them yourself for as for longevity they will last longer than ones you make yourself unless you have all the good gear to seal them up properly. I use the larger ones but do worry a bit about their long term reliability. There are a few of the guys using low energy boards for the computers on the forum with good success, but I have problems with any of them due to my lack of experience. I think a good laptop, that are available quite cheaply now would be the way to go. My old one that I am using at the moment is 10 years old and still sort of going and only uses 50 watts and would be less if used on batteries, only problem is it hasn't got usb2 ports. I will get a new one next year when finances allow as I want to get a logger going. On the Diy batteries, yes it can be done and at reasonable price but it is a lot of messy work, I think to get going you are better off getting an existing battery/ies, even a used one and fit a desulphator rather than trying to do everything at once unless you have nothing else to do (dream dream) I used to rebuild old storage batteries years ago and it is messy work, and wouldnt fit the Workplace rules in place now. I am rebuilding my radio room in the shed at the moment so not on air but hope to be by the end of january, 2m 70 cm . Look forward to catching up in the future. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| vk4akp Newbie Joined: 17/02/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
Back again. It's been too long! :) OK So still collecting parts to build this 12VDC Off Grid System. On the DC side I've simplified things to try and finally get a basic system operational. Still so many bits to buy and so many $$$'s needed, so have down scaled a little! LOL. OK for now. I have the following ready. - 1Kw Panels. (4x CSUN-250-60M) + Mounting rails and hardware. (+2x spare for other projects). - Midnite Classic-150 charge controller. - MC4 Connectors. - 100Ah Sealed Panasonic Deep Cycle Batteries x2 (Paralleled 200Ah total). [To be replaced by NiFe later] - Small 400Watt Wind Turbine with independent controller. On order. - 100A 2P DC breakers x3 (Panels 1-> Controller 2-> Battery's 3-> Load). - 16A 1P DC Breakers x4 (4x Panels -> 100A 2P DC Breaker -> Controller). - MC4 Panel Mount Connectors x8 (For DC Combiner Box). Needed. - Cable / Wire 4mm^2 or 6mm^2 (multi-strand)or other???? - Breaker DIN rails. - 4 to 1 DIN Combiners. - Design to build weather proof Array Combiner box for breakers etc. This will at least get the system up and running and I can expand on it later. My current main hurdle is Wire and building a weather proof box. Any ideas on where to buy the wire? And requirements thickness wise etc? (Each panel has a Max short circuit current of less then 10 Amps. Would also like to use colour coded wire to keep things nice. (Red +Pos, Black -Neg). The Breaker / combiner box I would like to make out of timber with a internal fireproof lining. Any idea's? http://shazam.zapto.org/igal/solar-2/ http://shazam.zapto.org/igal/wind-turbine-1/ |
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norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Ken, great trip the RE experience. After many years down the path and looking back at what I`d do differently should I start again. Firstly 240v inverters etc seem at odds to RE, but down the track that`ll more than likely be where you go. Cost, availability and reliability of 240v appliances leave 12 v gear for dead. Simply because 240v appliances are mainstream mature products. Have 3 wind turbines that spend most of their time doing nothing for two reasons. Solar is far more reliable and cost effective, bugger all maintenance, no guy wires, no bearings etc etc. thus have no need for the power they could produce. The wind you think you have before you put up a wind turbine becomes very fickle once you have a turbine up. If your in a area that is blessed with sunshine, you`ll get much better reliable return from solar for your buck. Having said that wind turbines are fun, are appealing etc not like boring solar panels. ie Wind are expensive toys, solar are expensive hard quiet achievers. Mostly have fun, tis a great trip. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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powerednut Senior Member  Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
You might want to look into getting a roll of what I think people here call welding wire. I've seen it a couple of times at various places, and its always been cheaper than 6mm from other places. Can anybody pipe up with specs? |
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| vk4akp Newbie Joined: 17/02/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
Hi, Yes please more info on the wire and building an enclosure. Unlike most forums people here seem to be more open minded with looking into cheaper DIY alternatives. Most other forums just quote you out of the box commercial options that run into huge $$$'s. :( The wind turbine was a spare of the moment thing. I had always wanted just one to play with and help supplement things. I had not shopped with eBay for over a month and they got edgy that they weren't getting my $$'s any more! LOL. So they sent me a discount voucher. I only realised it was there and how to use it on the last day it was valid. Anyhow long story short, the voucher + a sale + a make an offer agreement saw me landing the wind turbine here in my hands for about $300 from memory (Originally approaching $900 RRP incl shipping Ouch!). So it was either that or a large 240VAC inverter. At the time I couldn't get decent prices on the inverter so I went for the wind turbine. I will still be looking to get a 240VAC Sine inverter. I've been looking at one model that uses a toroidal transformer 3KV constant 9KV surge @12VDC. I will keep an eye on the market. (And I don't expect to rarely go over 2KV in every day usage) As for 240VAC vs 12VDC well most of the stuff I have is 12VDC so it's a no brainer. 12VDC Gear - Ham radio gear (HF, V/UHF, TNC's, HT's,Amps,Chargers). - Battery chargers (AA, AAA, 9V) etc (Maha HM-C9000, Intercept). - Hobby DC-DC Charger for most battery packs (Drills etc),Gel-Cells, Lead acid Batteries etc. - Networking. Cable Modem, Routers, Switches, Serial servers. - WiFi Linking. Ubiquity, MikroTik, (9-24VDC), + DD-WRT. - Laptop's (Cigarette Car Chargers) - TV's (Cigarette Car Chargers) - Native 12VDC though. - Mobile Phone Chargers (HTC Cigarette Car Chargers). - LED Lighting 12VDC - Water Pumps 12VDC For 240VAC I will use the big inverter I've been looking at. It has the ability to switch over to a generator if the battery voltage drops below a set level. It then kicks in a generator for 240VAC pass through + charges the batteries as well. 240VAC Gear - Small Microwave (<600Watt). - Kettle - Single Cook Top - Washing machine - Small Desktop Oven Unknown I haven't decided on Fridge / Freezer yet. I have seen where people use a cheap chest freezer with an external thermostat. This seems to be the cheapest option for a Fridge. Short run times and better insulation + no front door for the cold air to fall out of. There is also combo fridge freezers to look at. 12VDC/240VAC/LPG Gas. But these tend to be very expensive. There are also a lot of other interesting diversions to think about. - Back to Grid micro Inverters. - Switching in / out Mains electricity (If available) using hard wired off peak tariffs. - Gasification Drum to feed a generator. - How to compress / Store Synth Gas in 20KG LPG cylinders. - DIY Electric start Small Diesel Motor -> Car alternator for charging. - Solar Water heating. - Wind Turbine Load diversion into DIY Water heating element using old Oven elements. + Same for excess Solar power etc. All good fun. But first step is to get the 12VDC system up and running. I have been collecting bits for 4+ years now with no functioning system to show for it yet. ;) .-.-. |
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| Oldtimer47 Newbie Joined: 30/10/2015 Location: AustraliaPosts: 3 |
hi, I have just found this site, how is your set up going, I have 3kw of solar panels on the roof, very annoyed about the fact that I get 6 cents per Kw from Ergon, when they are charging me 26. not a bad free profit. I am thinking of putting a small, part off grid system in, just to start off, that will be running my Fridge, (new Samsung 4 1/2 star) fair sized LED TV, plus laptops and a few lights, Compact fluro, then, see how it goes and work up from there, those items will all be hooked up 24 / 7, I have been thinking about this for a while, my Plan ??? is a 1000w inverter, 24v, a couple of 12v deep cycle batteries, in series, to give 24v, at this time I plan to charge the batteries using a 24v battery charger hooked up to a timer of a day time when my panels are giving out free excess power, I have one of the meter thingo's the Gov put out a while back, I have been watching it for a while of a night time, seem to be using up to 700w this is all stuff I can do, extension leads, power boards and so on. I will still be using mains power for hot water, washing machine and some other items, any comments appreciated, Oldtimer. |
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