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Forum Index : Solar : 2 Solar or not solar?
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| Emmam Newbie  Joined: 20/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2 |
Sorry new to this forum and need some advise.... We are currently building a home in a rural area near Bathurst NSW. When we purchased the block we obtain quotes and were looking at $30K to get grid connected power to the block - we attempted to progress with this and it was then that we discovered were unable to get an easement created to run power to the block!! So we moved on to solar - and become very comfortable with the idea!! We obtained quotes and discovered for the cost of putting power to the site we could set up a very nice solar system - especially as my father works for battery company and can supply us with second hand batteries - they have only been used for 3 years so have a good 7+ years left in them - for NOTHING... Now today I have recieved a call from the power company asking if I would like to connect power (to the grid) as the block in from has sold allow us to create an easement and run power to our block for $15K. He totally bagged the idea of going solar, he really unsettle my confidence in living off grid. I understand he may be motivated by obttaining my business - but then I wonder if he is speaking from industry knowledge also?? 
We have a budget of $26K for the solar - should we now scrap our solar idea in favour of the cheaper (somewhat easier) option of connecting to the grid? We have designed our house completly for the solar life ie - wood heating, gas cooking, gas boosted solar hot water, led downlights, ceiling fans, positioning on the block etc. Your opinions and suggestions are very welcome as I am feeling a little unsure of the best option - |
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MacGyver Guru  Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
[Quote=Emmam]We have designed our house completly for the solar life ie - wood heating, gas cooking, gas boosted solar hot water, led downlights, ceiling fans, positioning on the block etc. Why not do both? Grid-tie would make a dandy back-up until such time as you can cut it loose and/or sell electricity back to the utility company. If it were me, I'd take the guy up on his offer to give you mains power an do the solar thing as a back-up in case the grid goes down. Play it both ways! . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Emmam I think you should go down the solar road as you have already made the decision to do so, and if in the future you need power well ask them for a good quote and see if they can do it cheaper. also for non grid connected property it should be still possible to get some subsidy, hope you kept their original refusal in writing. It would take a long time for you to recoup the cost of the power from grid feed and also anything you earn is taxable also. It is nice to be independent of this money hungry commercial system. There is a cost though, I would think that you would have to put aside $20 a week for running your system, as it all costs. The only reason to have grid power is if you want to run a home workshop and a lot of power tools, in my case that is what happened as I have a workshop, but it cost a fortune to get the 3 phase on at the time, the only advantage is now I have retired it allows me to put a 30 kw grid feed system in and make a few dollars out of them. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Dunno about this one ,,,, The easy way ,, $15K signed and delivered,not too bad . but read the fine print about min usage costs ,Etc. that could be the killer.... The solar ,, well, dads batteries are a help , ,dunno, there's allways a lot of things that go wrong ,remember... grid goes off , wait 1 hour and she's back ,,, inverter goes off ,,,maybe you and the missus will have some dissusions,lol. then you'll have to fix , go to sydney, bring new one back ,oh ,wrong model ,bla,bla,bla.. A very interesting question ,, I'd go for the $15K grid ,as you're ahead in the financial dept. and all your other stuff is like mine , gas . My quarter bill is around $200 -- .. Dunno Bruce Bushboy |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I think it all comes down to your life style, and are you prepared to make changes and sacrifices. Things like.....turning appliances off at the powerpoints, on low power days you both watch tv and not 1 watch tv and the other on the computer, Hang your washing on the line and no dryer, buy a fridge that is sutiable for use with solar, have floor coverings that can be swept and not vaccuumed cleaned......the list goes on, It is not that hard to adjust you life to suit, but a matter of do you want to?? If you want the 10 foot square tv and the coffee machine plus dishwasher and clothes dryer, and a house with reverse cycle aircon.... etc.... than going off grid is not for you. I wonder if the grid supplier has a need to get power into your area that you are unaware of, and are trying to sign you up to help cover their own underlying costs. They are Sneaky buggers at times. You say the land nextdoor has been sold so maybe they have applied for power to their property and want you to contribute to the lines cost in a round about way. It is a hard question and even harder to pass advice on, but the people i know off grid are very happy and would not go back to grid unless it was attached to the house free of charge. It took them 6 months to sort their life style out for off grid, but all is very normal now and it makes you realize just how wastefull the average house is. Just dont let yourself be bullied into a decission and take our advice and please yourself. Good luck Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
Well if you can get the grid for $15K go for it and then you can still have all the mod cons running off the grid. Just go off grid then start spending big $$$ for things like fridges efficient washing machines etc. Forget air conditioning in summer when it's 45 C in the shade. By all means get those free batteries and run your lights etc off the grid. As far as 3 phase goes just use a VFD to run 3 phase off single phase. I run an off grid machine shop here and run 3 phase on several machines and the end goal is to convert EVERY machine to 3 phase and just use VFD's on them. Just be very careful of the sharks out there saying they have great solar deals, get the grid on then start small with the RE setup. research on building a dual axial flux wind generator for the best bang for buck and pretty soon you'll be RE hooked without having to spend $$$$$$ on a RE system. If the grid didn't cost over $100K to get here thats the way we would of gone and started slowly on a RE system. Cheers Bryan |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Emmam Looking at the costs of a usable system minus your battery costs. 20 200watt 24 v panels $10K 2 Inverters 6000 24 v watt sine wave, $2200 one for spare as backup. 2 MPPT regulators 60 amp $650 Hookup wire and other material to make racking $1500 1 small wind turbine 500 watt $900 not really necessary but interesting. Other accessories such as dump load controller logger etc $200 {build them yourself} Back up generator $500 for cloudy weather 2000 amp hour batteries for free, lucky boy. If you include a new battery system, a 48 volt fork lift battery 1000 ah split into two 24 volt units in parallel. $4500 2000 ah @24 volts. Total $15950 As you say that the house is designed with solar in mind ,you are well aware of the limitations of self sufficiency. Allow $20 a week in the solar fund $1040 a year offset your mortgage while you don't use it. That will be at least half of what your power bill from the utility would be, so you are saving $1040 a year at least, that could also go to mortgage offset and shorten your home loan by 10 years on a 30 year term and that's without calculating in inflating electricity costs, {that is if your wife doesn't find something else more important to spend it on}. On the air-conditioning, you can power a evaporation cooler using a single 200 watt panel, it wont turn your house into a fridge but it will make it livable. http://www.mtbest.net./ Have a look at some that are doing it. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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powerednut Senior Member  Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
i'd stick with the solar. The grid connection is going to be an on going cost for the rest of the time you live there. The solar will cost you a bit every 10 years or so (when your dad stops working at the battery factory) but apart from that it'll be free to run. My folks place has been off-grid, running on a solar system for 13 and a bit years now and they love it. They are still on their first battery bank. They also don't have to put up with blackouts everytime wild weather hits, unlike everybody else in their district. It does require some habit changes, but its really not a big change. The only thing I would recommend is to have a couple of different sources of power. Maybe a wind turbine if the climate is suitable. Having a backup generator is a must. |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
I'd look at it this way , $15K for the poles and wire,meter,Etc then on-going 3 monthly costs.. Now,, how long do you think you'll live at this property,how old are the kids, how far have you got to drive for schools, work, Etc. Remember for $15K you improve the value of the property,right now, and enjoy the power. Your chances of selling the property with a connection are greatly improved ,IF, you have to /decide to sell. As time ,say 10 years ,goes on before you sell, the $15K becomes $20-30K for a prospective buyer !!!!.And, you have been enjoying flick of switch convinience(sp).. And, I don't know if I'm right ,but are you elegilable for the Govt. rebate on solar if you DON'T get the grid feed?? Remember they have said it's available!!. Anyhow , I have both , not a lot ,but 1 Kw solar is a wee bit of a saving.. Dunno,, a hard question ,,but $15K now is not all that much if you consider the above.. I wish you well Bruce Bushboy |
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| powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
Hmm.. dunno about that. When I was buying my place there was no discernable price difference between rural properties with a grid connection and those without. Properties with a solar system generally had it listed as a feature, but thats about it. Personally I'm saving a lot not being grid connected, and would find it very painful to go back. My electrickery bill wasn't ever huge, but not having one at all is soo nice. Just do some quick maths on it. if your electricity bill was about $200/quarter like somebodys above then a full $15k off-grid system will take 18 years to pay back, not including replacement batteries etc (and rebates for the panels, which I'm pretty sure you can get - just miss out on the feed in tarrifs). If it was closer to mine ($350ish) then you'll be look at 10 years to pay back. And thats assuming your usage stays the same. |
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| windlight Guru Joined: 03/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 331 |
Sounds to me like the adjacent block owners have applied and your new lower price is a co-contribution to the line, this is not a bad thing The fact that you have designed your house for off grid is a positive even if you choose grid. One point to consider is how handy are you, if you go solar can you fix the small problems that will crop up. I am off grid by choice 8 years now, I started out on this road less traveled because I wanted to, it was not the most cost effective solution but has been a very rewarding journey. In a solar system the inverter is the most likely to be the weak point, and some source of back up is essential. Having said that I have great confidence in my house inverter, but there is a back up generator and an interconnection to the other system, able to transfer 3Kw which is enough and the max of each of that systems inverters. The choice can only be made by you and yours, it is a different lifestyle but not too different. How much solar are you considering? allan "I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it" - (Act II, Scene IV). |
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| powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
This is probably not that useful for Emmam (who sounds like hes been there and done that), but might be useful for newbies considering the go off grid option. This is a guide to how to size your solar system: Solar Online's sizing guide Its a good starting point to help figure out just how big a solar system your going to need. |
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| neil0mac Senior Member Joined: 26/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 210 |
It certainly won't be any use if 'he' doesn't check for replies - unless he has, and just hasn't 'announced' subsequent visits - or checked for/replied to whims. |
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| Emmam Newbie Joined: 20/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2 |
Thanks for all your replies and suggests :) We are still unsure what to do - I have contacted the owners of the block in front and asked then when they plan on connecting the power - this may help me make my decisions, considering we need it very soon. Another thing that is pushing me to the grid is the fact I will be working from home, using my PC and printer. Will this be a massive drain on my solar - energy usage? The system we were thinking of putting in is- Sunny Boy 3000 TL -20 Inverter Sunny Island 5048 System manager Sunny Island 40 System charger 18 x 185 W panels Yuassa UXL 550-2FR batteries 3 strings X 24 per string Using the calculator that someone suggested earlier I think we will be fine, this problem is I cant afford to run out of power. I feel Im in a catch 22 position - if I connect to the grid I run the risk of recieving a bill I don't want/cant afford to pay. If I go solar I don't ever want to say to my boss, "sorry I can't log on today or we won't be able to turn the lights on tonight" Thanks again for all your replies. P.S. I am a girl... :) |
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| windlight Guru Joined: 03/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 331 |
Someone correct me but the combination of the three mentioned Sunny products does not gell for me. Sunny Island 40 System charger info from brochure........ "SMA DC coupling: maximum efficiency and applicable everywhere AC and DC coupling optimally coordinated and, for the first time, from a single manufacturer: the all-purpose Sunny Island Charger 40 by SMA. Its broad DC input voltage range makes sensible system configuration possible for almost all PV modules. Thanks to the integrated MPP tracking system, the charger guarantees an energy yield that is between 15 to 30 percent higher than that of conventional shunt and serial charge controllers. Its unique features for charge controllers of this power range include the high protection rating, fanless operation and the broad temperature range that makes worldwide use possible even in difficult ambient conditions. The easy installation and completely automatic customization of the key controller settings by the Sunny Island make its startup foolproof". Sunny Boy 3000 TL -20 Inverter, info from brochure...... Sunny Boy 3000W - Transformerless "Max. AC output power: 3000 W PV voltage range, MPPT: 125 V - 440 V Max. input current: 17 A AC connection: single-phase Max. efficiency: 97.0% Euro ETA: 96.3%" Sunny Island 5048 System manager info from brochure... "Stand-alone grids easier than ever With the Sunny Island 5048, the way to stand-alone grid is easier than ever: each of the essential steps required for operation are quick and easy to carry out. Therefore it is ready for operation within minutes. The Sunny Island is suitable for systems from 3 up to 100 kW and takes over all regulation processes in the stand-alone grid. It is flexible in installation, extendable and has a first-class battery management system. The device is well primed for use worldwide and is available as SI 5048U to US American specifications". Seems to me to be more geared to grid connect than stand alone power and function overlap, a single Australian made inverter charger with transformer (makes starting heavy loads easier) would simplify this and provide auto start of a back up generator so there would always be power. Then I am biased towards Australian made products for Australian conditions. allan "I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it" - (Act II, Scene IV). |
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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Emmam, I have some points to consider. Your remarks suggest that Costs dictate this decision. This means you have an exclusive OR situation. The cost of the grid connection is not that high, considering most RE would be considered as an alternative if the grid connection cost was above $30k. Rebates are apparently coming back for OffGrid RE as well, if criteria and costs are met, that may complicate a decision. The cost of DIY solar is coming down, but there are many things to consider for a large install, like what you have described. If you are hoping for REC's to offset the costs, then DIY may not be considered OK in the approval. I know of an install where to get the REC's approved, more $ than the REC value had to be spent to get to the required standards. All items must also be new, so second hand batteries will complicate things. The batteries you describe are designed for float application. I see lifetime issues with them used in a cyclic application as you will be needing. I see no autostarting backup genset in the equation. This is an essential component OFF grid. We don't all have time to monitor the RE performance daily, and you need reliability, so automatic operation is required. The system you have described is similar to one I saw installed near KIAMA, in NSW. This was described as a GRIDbackup. There was a battery, and inverter and GTI, and control box. Like a large import/export UPS. This would require both the grid and RE though. The thing with RE, is that a lot of the time excess power from solar is wasted, as the battery cannot store it. The solar panel sizing is calculated from expected loading and days of autonomy required, and providing enough recharge capacity for the worse case. I expect that the best for you would be to connect the grid, and install a GTI and panels to OFFset future bills. This way is most efficient use of the power as well. I have LiPo batteries in my own setup, but this is a hobby & R&D aspect. The bulk of my RE is GTI exported for others to use, and not wasted when the battery is full. I also have automatic GRID battery recharging in low solar periods, like what a backup genset would provide. I would opt for a laptop computer. Printing and other COMM items could run from a small UPS. Grid independence if power failed. Opting for an OFFgrid lifestyle does require changes to energy usage habits, and is considered difficult for many modern lifestyle families. Gordon. PS edit:- Hi windlight, I am sure that Selectronics [Aus made] make a big enough inverter. Last I heard though was that using say a PS1 inverter, that battery charging requirements may not be adequate in inverter/charger mode. The SMA 5048 is a transformer coupled inverter/charger. Outback make a similar type and so do Xantrax. In some instances AC coupling with an inverter/charger is good, but reliabilty for battery recharging seems to be better with discrete DC solar MPPT systems. become more energy aware |
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| powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
It might be worth having a chat with your neighbours and finding out how reliable the power service is where you are. That may also affect your decision. The PC and printer isn't that big a deal. Get a power meter (jaycar sells them, as does magnet mart and others) and stick it on and see what you are really drawing. On my work pc the 120 Watt supply typically uses 40Watts, or 20Watts when switched off (turn them off at the wall). My laptop has a 90Watt supply and draws 25 for word processing/email/surfing. it draws 40 while watching movies etc and seems to peak at about 60 for gaming. my other laptop has a 60Watt supply - normal use is 20, peak is 40ish. A laptop has the advantage of having its own backup battery - so you can work for at least 2 hours if the power dies. If you do decide on off grid definately get a generator to use as backup. I use a honda generator (EP3100CX) which runs for what seems like forever on a tank of gas. (11 hours on the 20L tank). My folks have a similair generator (without the 12v charger circuit), which they use to top up their battery banks if they have more than a couple of days without sunshine. A second renewable power source (wind or hydro) would be a very good idea as well - it'll mean you can still produce energy on those rainy/overcast days *edit* to be honest if I absolutely had to have power like you do I would be inclined towards doing the grid thing. The only thing that makes me keep pushing for the off grid is the free batteries - it makes it much easier to afford a large capacity battery bank which gives you more days-without-power-input. |
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| windlight Guru Joined: 03/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 331 |
Gordon my home inverter is a SPMC 482 (Selectronic) and it is more than adequate in inverter mode 6 Kw @ 50 deg. c and 115A in charge mode, coupled to 4.2Kw of solar it meets all of our needs and supplements the packing shed. And 18 kw surge, starts the generator when needed, user programmable. allan "I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it" - (Act II, Scene IV). |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
[Quote=Emmam]I feel Im in a catch 22 position . . . My first advise at this point would be to scale back and learn to live with less. After doing this, your urgency won't get the better of you, forcing you into an ill-thought-out decision. Someone already said it here I think, but if the computer, calculator and printer are a worry, build a dedicated solor / wind charging system for it and put that pup to rest. Like I said early on, I'd do both. You go girl! 
. . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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SSW_squall Senior Member Joined: 20/03/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 111 |
Hi Emmam, Just my thoughts on your situation: If i was in your position i think i would definitely opt for the off grid option, 8x 185W panels (3.3kW) will, on an average basis, provide around 10kWh a day, our house uses around 15kWh a day but we have electric hot water. If, as you say, your house is geared towards energy efficiency, with wood and gas heating, solar hot water and good passive solar design you should have no problems collecting enough electrical power for the rest of house We got a breezeair evaporative air conditioner last summer and it is brilliant, on the 40deg Adelaide days the air coming out of the vent was around 25deg and very comfortable without being too humid. We run ours on filtered dam water which works fine, because we are not connected to mains water. Max power for our unit is 500W, but we mostly use it at 2/3 power which is about 250W so you would expect it to use about 2 - 3kWh a day but at this time of year your solar array should be generating close to 20kWh which is heaps of energy Evaporative airconditioning should work well in hot dry summers of Bathurst, i lived in Orange for a while which is much the same climate but abit cooler (It even snows in winter sometimes!!) Rather than looking at your generator backup as the life raft for the sinking ship, perhaps it would be better to view it as simply a second port of call... You could consider a slow speed lister clone 6/1 diesel, these are utterly reliable and simple machines: 1. Can run 24/7 with very little attention 2. Are quiet because they run slow at 600RPM and are water cooled 3. Are very efficient - typically 0.3L diesel per kWh generated. 4. Can start any difficult load, - bore pump, aircompressor, welder ect 5. Are simple to repair and easy to get parts for. Check out: ozlisteroids which has prices and links to good example setups. Also: Utterpower The guy george rants and raves abit but is on the money about the advantages of these engines as use for off grid power generation Don't be scared by the fact that these engines look "too mechanical" once set up they are very simple to opperate and are very much the sledge hammer of the generator world! I won't presume to say what skills you may or may not have, but suffice to say any diesel mechanic these machines are an sinch to service Should cost about $2,200 and maybe a $300 for someone to weld up a frame/base to attach the generator unit. In combination with the solar panels, batteries and an inverter you would be 100% guaranteed of stable power every day of the year. Which is more than you can say about the general reliablilty of grid power in rural Australia Regards AB Einstein: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler |
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