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Forum Index : Solar : Solar power the new roof insulation debac
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| dwyer Guru  Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 574 |
Hi Crew Just have alook the news and this make you wonder what is going on with solar insulation as l am having solar people coming to my place in 10 days time to give me quote on solar panel installation and will let you know what happen next? Industry figures warn some operators are cutting overheads to drum up business Source: AdelaideNow Solar power industry in safety warning Installations so poor panels fall off Call to change allocation of subsidies SUBSIDISED solar power risks becoming a new insulation-type debacle, with industry leaders claiming shoddy work and poor safety standards are rife. Top companies have given warning that: - Shonky operators are flooding the solar power industry on the back of government subsidies. - Dangerous non-tempered glass and inferior imported panels are being used to cut costs. - There is evidence of installations in Queensland so poor that panels could fall off the roof. - So-called "free" 1.5kW units are insufficient. Fearing a repeat of the ceiling insulation disaster, which led to house fires and the death of four installers, they have told the Federal Government it must change the way subsidies are allocated to safeguard homeowners and encourage a sustainable industry. Householders are currently eligible for up to $6000 in federal rebates for roof-mounted solar power systems installed by an accredited operator. Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar. Related CoverageFlu shot: Vaccine shortage Cheap solar on the way Herald Sun, 13 Mar 2010 Rebates 'attract dodgy tradies' Courier Mail, 18 Feb 2010 400,000 Homes with substandard batts The Australian, 18 Feb 2010 Solar industry comes under scrutiny Adelaide Now, 18 Feb 2010 More heat on Peter Garrett Courier Mail, 17 Feb 2010End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar. There have been about 20,000 such systems installed in Queensland in the past three years. But industry figures warn some operators are cutting overheads to drum up business. Solar Shop Australia managing director Adrian Ferraretto said some operators were offering 1.5kW installations "free", allowing government subsidies to cover the full cost. "When things are for free, every man and his dog gets accreditation and starts installing," he said. "We do not want a repeat of the ceiling insulation situation." Mr Ferraretto said a quality 3kW solar system to power a family home should cost $16,000 to $17,000. "A 1.5kW system is really only enough to power your shed," he said, adding that only householders willing to contribute their own money should get subsidies. "If you had a 3kW system you would have mums and dads taking a lot more interest in what they are paying for. You would also have a worthwhile solar power system and we could ensure we continue to have a credible industry." Greenbank Australia, the nation's largest independent trader of renewable energy certificates, revealed the dangers to a Senate Estimates hearing in Canberra. "You actually have electricity generation on your roof and if you start putting in cheap panels that are made with just plain glass, not tempered glass, it is dangerous," Greenbank chief Fiona O'Hehir said. Conenergy Australia general manager David McCallum said some substandard installations could simply fall off the roof. "You could have . . . 5kg or 20kg modules falling from the roof line," he said. Mr Ferraretto said he had photographic evidence in Queensland of wood being used to secure solar installations. "That could simply rot and the installation fall off," he said. Industry insiders said some operators were also installing low-grade solar panels. Queensland National Party Senator Ron Boswell, who has been investigating the issue for several months, said the safety concerns were real but he did not believe they were life threatening at this stage. "It is frankly cold comfort to be told by the department that safeguards are in place," Senator Boswell said. "The danger may be more of rorting and defrauding householders." Clean Energy Council Australia said there were credible concerns about the methods used by some solar panel installers. Cheero from Ian |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Ian Looks like the news media is in beat up mode again, and they will find shonkie operators if they look far enough as you find that in most industries. My thought is they should have independent inspector to sign off the installation before paying the installer, the government waste so much money inspecting things that are non critical and yet something with high voltage DC is mounted on a tin roof without inspection, this is ridiculous, its the fault of the government not the industry, as much as I hate the inept political system there are safety issues they should enforce in solar installations. I inspected my solar panel installation and was very pleased with the installation workmanship, unfortunately very few people can do that, hence the need for inspectors. In other industries working for the government the inspection procedure is there and strict, but politicians where to quick to hop on the conservation billy cart for brownie points with solar. I agree that the 1kw system is a joke when the average usage per residence is 32kw and a 1 kw system averages 5kw day in average conditions, However I know of people who are frugal that have reduced their power bill to zero on that system. In my case when I switch over to run on the solar system 1 kw subsidized system my average usage is 10Kw day down from 35 kw day, however most of the saving has been from solar hot water system, which was on the subsidy scheme and still cost $1500 but well worth it. The other savings came from the little power meter as it found some faulty items in the house. The solar company I got mine off have now woken up and are promoting a system with 3200 watt inverter and 1500 wattt initial installation upgradable to the full capacity of the inverter. I feel this approach has given the homeowner the incentive to progress into a more useful system once they see the savings of the initial installation. The government is ripping so much of us all that however small the handout I would go for it. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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powerednut Senior Member  Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
One thing to remeber - the goal of both the insulation rebates and the solar rebates was more about the government having a means to offload a crapload of cash to people to encourage them to spend money (economic stimulus) than about helping people reduce their energy usage. A lot of people did get decent solar systems, and a lot of people did get decently insulated houses. Unfortunately there was a lot of shonky operators taking advantage of the opportinty to make money, and the Department responsible didn't have the time/infrastructure in place to ensure independant testing of every install. |
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| neil0mac Senior Member Joined: 26/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 210 |
It costs them, at worst, $3500 for panels, $2700 for inverter and install costs, and they get $6340 in rebates. Their 'profit' could well be largely the install cost of around $1200 less materials - not bad for a day's work. Hmmm! Their cost for panels, inverter and install is around the $11 - $12K mark. The homeowner pays them $16,000 and they also pocket the rebate of around $7,800 giving them a total profit of $13,000 for the job? Not bad for a day (or two's) work. |
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| powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
Its interesting to me that some people manage to live quite comfortably on less than the 1kw system will produce in a day: http://mtbest.net/household_efficiency.pdf |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Power Thanks for the link very informative we should have more of these sorts of projects on the forum All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
No problem - the site isn't mine, though I'm planning on copying some of his stuff (fridge mostly). |
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
Yeah I agree with Neil f those bastards quoting $20K for 4KW. 4400W total outlay $8600 (including $1000 for misc stuff i break/missed/bought incorrectly) payback 932 days. again F u Solarshop at $16000 you are making ~$8K for a day or two's work and worst of all using far cheaper to manufacture thin film panels!!!! Mine uses mono panels and transformerless inverters. Hell even our top of the line architectural system with frameless Solon panels and Aurora inverters would come in at less than $16000 +$7000 in REC rebates. 130/04 Solon panels $1000 each = $18K + PVI3600 $4K install $1600 = $16600. give or take. use the 230W Solon's for 20% reduction in price per W. $12480+4000+1600 = 18K less 7000 =$11K as far as I can see they should be paying me!!! Karl Luck favours the well prepared |
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| powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
Wow - where do you manage to pick up panels that cheaply (for the 4400W system costing $8600)? |
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| danielhenry31 Newbie  Joined: 29/06/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 5 |
I checked my installation of solar panels and was very happy with the installation business, unfortunately, very few people can do there is a need for inspectors. In other sectors, working for the method of controlling the government, and the chain, but how fast the politicians jump on the conservation of Billy Cart brownie points with solar energy. I agree that the system of 1kW is a joke, while the average per capita consumption 32KW 5kW system and a 1 kw per day on average under average conditions, but I know people who are thrifty who reduced their electricity bill to zero on the system. portable battery charger |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Daniel I agree with you that the 1KW system is a joke, but in saying that I know several families that are getting a small credit on that, so the real problem is our lifestyle that is wasteful in terms of energy, before electricity people lived with a few candles, I'm not advocating going back to that, but a good look at our consumption is in order. I have a 1KW system and now in the middle of winter it is producing 2300 watts a day, that would be enough to run a fridge, freezer, as they dont run much in the cold weather, led lights and a small TV and a water pressure pump. Also a 600 watt wind turbine that makes around 200 watts a week, due to seasonal lack of wind, so no help there. The Solar HWS reduced consumption 10 kw a day so that was the biggest help. I am of course using more than that but the point is it can be done without degrading our lifestyle too much if we have to. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| webrey227 Newbie Joined: 27/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1 |
I agree with it, and this is economical because it is like a solar power that I'm using right now. It is worthy to have some like Solar Power Melbourne, to have all what we want for the consumption of power. Proverbs are mental gems |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
Powerdnut there are plenty of AOK certified panels on ebay now for under $2/W delivered anywhere in the country. hence let your fingers do the walking. Luck favours the well prepared |
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mid north Matt Regular Member  Joined: 06/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 58 |
hi just had my nsw free 1.5kw system hooked up for 2 months and have seen it go to 1545 watts and today it produced 10.3 kw which isthe best ive gotten from it.on my system i paid the $410 more to have it on stands and facing true north and i think it was money well spent.i know others that get in credit with their same size systems here and dont get a power bill. Pt Wakefield Matt |
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norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Have clocked up 4 years plus with my system, a 2.5kw off grid system 50% paid by Govt. under the now finished rural household subsidy. Closed possibly because there is few votes for the current govt in rural areas. My average consumtion has been 5.2 kw/day, it has had its problems but thankfully has been installed by a competant authorised installer. Electricians in QLD work is not inspected by inspectors when working on grid only installations ie no solar(inspections were phased out many years ago), and that seems to work. Thus possibly the problem of shonky installers is created by the authorisation procedure, and I believe that was so with the insulation debacle. Unfortunately as we are seeing following the Yasi repairs here in QLD, there seems to be a lot of insurance work being done by shonky contractors out for the quick bob. My point being we need less govt not more thus the industry (solar) should be self regulating as the electrical trade has become. Just how that can be accomplished with the industry in its infancy is the million dollar question. It does seem once subsidies or insurance money is involved, the problem is magnified which suggests, when the consumer is spending his own money he/she controls shonky operators much better. No doubt from my view solar is the way to go, the days of households using 35kw/day are coming to an end, and really there is little pain just common(now days rare) sense and discipline in getting that consumption down. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| adam Newbie Joined: 06/12/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2 |
Yeah, funny how solar shop are quoting those prices, and complaining about their competitors being cheap and mentioning quality. I needed my 9 panel 1.5kw system installed - and they quoted me $4500 to handle the paper work and put it on the roof! Needless to say I did not accept, got it done much cheaper by qualified and licensed electricians, and am very happy with the quality of the job. It sounds like scaremongering people in to the high prices to me. |
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