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Forum Index : Solar : Opera .. A Camp Guy heating hot water direct from panel inputs of 60V
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| tytower Newbie  Joined: 19/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 21 |
Have seen the Youtube videos of a guy called "Opera"? He's heating hot water direct from solar panels he claims but I have tried following what he's doing and he has made it very confusing. Changing inverter boards and supercaps etc.His pictures are poorly lighted casting shadows that look like wires and his circuits are incomplete . Theres no big overview to start you in the right direction just a lot of isolated detail. Ive got one going to the point of getting a voltage out of the board but its damn hard to work out where to connect the ins and outs . The idea is he's using an "Inverter " board you buy on ebay or Ali for about $3 . He makes modifications to that board to produce a PWM output . Then supposedly connected to a bank of supercaps he drives a 110V heater element direct. The circuit uses a TL431 adjustable zener to set a point at which the unit turns on supply to the heater . Then when your batteries get close to full it turns the power to the hot water heater ON until the battery voltage drops again and it switches OFF and resumes charging the batteries . I know this is the ideal system people have been chasing to absorb the wasted power after the battery is charged. I have been watching all his videos and still cant decide if hes pulling our legs or if this should actually work. I'll put a video link here to his system that I built to try this out . Following closely I find my input is 68 Volts from 2 of 250 watt panels and the output which is supposed to be PWM is only 12 Volts configured the way he describes.I've adjusted the TL431 to suit my input voltage.The LED turns on and off and a 12V bulb lights up correctly. These inverter boards are supposed to be run through a 12/240V transformer I think so I'm not understanding his claims to be driving a 110 v light. Its only got 12V coming out. I'm working on this so I'll update as I achieve anything .Perhaps I can learn from your comments too. Video on device I have built Edited 2020-02-24 11:30 by tytower |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
I did see a youtube video recently of this guy heating water with solar panels, but he used a 48v element. The 48v heater elements for hot water systems are cheap, like less than $100 for a 1500 watt element, eg https://ringhotwater.com.au/product/48v-1500w-hot-water-element/ All you need are a few 24v solar panels, 3 would be a minimum, and a high current relay, switched from the hot water system thermostat. Its all low voltage, so its easy to install, cheap, and safe. The panels could pump out over 36 volts, so a 48v element is more reliable than a 24v element, it will never burn out. I'm in a frost area, so I'm very tempted to go down this same path. Its easier to connect wires than plumbing, and solar panels are so cheap now. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Warpspeed Guru  Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Have to agree. Solar electric makes far more sense than solar thermal these days for heating water, especially now that secondhand photovoltaic panels have become so cheap and readily available. Its still tough though to harvest enough heat energy at mid winter, no matter how you do it. The trick seems to be to use a solar powered pre-heater storage tank that feeds hot water to the "main" hot water heating system. At mid winter the solar pre-heater system might only be capable of producing moderately warm water, but that can still provide a big energy saving, because the "main" system has a warm water inlet rather than freezing cold water inlet. Also, the pre-heater loses far less heat to the surroundings if its only warm instead of almost boiling. So it can work wonderfully well in mid winter. In summer it may tend to boil, but if the water going into the "main" hot water heater is hot enough, it will require zero, or almost zero energy to operate to provide normal hot water outlet temperatures. So the hot tip is to have an enormous insulated pre-heater tank that can absorb all the available solar on the odd sunny day in winter, and store heat for the cold gloomy days that follow. Cheers, Tony. |
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Murphy's friend Guru Joined: 04/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 648 |
Electric hot water is new to me, mine is instant gas with no pilot flame. But my recent acquired caravan has a gas or electric hot water system. I was servicing this and the anode had just about perished to nothing when I inspected it. So I'm wondering if I was to build such a solar/electric water heater for my house what about the anode for this? The 48V element Gizmo posted a link above I see is stainless, would it still require an anode if fitted into a stainless water tank? I have even heard of using plastic (vented) tanks for pre heating purposes, is that a reasonable idea? |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
The sacrificial zinc anode is just something to discourage the exposed metal in the main tank from eroding away. If the tank is made of stainless, or glass lined, it should not be required. Don't know about plastic, but whatever it is, it probably must withstand boiling temperatures and usually full mains water pressure. There are some pretty tough plastics out there these days, so it may be possible. Cheers, Tony. |
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| tytower Newbie Joined: 19/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 21 |
Well thanks guys for all those unrelated and worthless comments that just up your post numbers and make you feel needed I guess. I am here trying to find out how the device in the video works and those comments just advance whatever cause you are on and do nothing to answer my thread question so I don't understand your need to post irrelevent dribble . Has anybody even looked at the video? Has anybody any idea if it works or not? Has anybody built anything like it ? Has anybody any idea what they are doing here? |
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| tytower Newbie Joined: 19/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 21 |
The problem with these elements as various Youtube videos display is that the resistance of the element seems to stay the same effectively despite the voltage but the current stays the same too. Ohm's law aside I am trying to understand this too and one guy DavidPoz has put together an excel spreadsheet of suitable elements for the system you have . Ill link to his video and put the file here if I can Water Heating comparison video EXCELL spreadsheet Edited 2020-02-25 07:51 by tytower |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
The resistance is obviously going to change with element temperature, and that depends on the type of element construction and thermal coupling into the water, and how much power you feed into it. Only way to know for sure is to do some actual real world testing with whatever elements you have. Trying to efficiently match the highly variable output of solar panels to any heating element directly, is not going to be possible. You are going to need some kind of variable duty cycle controller. Cheers, Tony. |
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| tytower Newbie Joined: 19/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 21 |
Nah. -Follow the links for an understanding of whats involved. First get the element most probably suited to your MPPT voltage point . Then set up the PWM board to put out at your set MPPT point or in effect when the incoming voltage rises past that point because the battery is full. Thats where I am now but my post is looking for someone who might understand the controller I am building a little better than me. Thanks Complaint Your edit cutoff is too short ! I add to my posts to complete hem and keep all the info in a coordinated manner . Making the edit unavailable after a few minutes is stupid and I wonder what you hope to achieve by that .Have you thought it through or just accepted some other forums practice .? Here is that excell file in a CSV form as no one seems to follow links provided Nope ,PDF or zip only and I don't have it in those formats . Why the restrictions on file types? Following another forums lead again ? Gotta take a screenshot to get it here  Edited 2020-02-25 08:46 by tytower |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
tytower, pull your head in mate. No one will help you if you keep up with this attitude. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| tytower Newbie Joined: 19/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 21 |
Thats a matter of opinion . If you can't help why do you bother posting? It serves no point to say I don't know and post that then talk about something else. I post here because that's what the forum is supposed to be about and thats how I learn . If you allow these old farts to sit there and wack in irrelevance then the forum serves no practical purpose and I am better off somewhere else anyway. You have it how you like .If someone is working along the same idea they will come in and offer their thoughts . Regardless of your opinion . If none appear then no-one is thinking that way yet. I seek knowledge and discussion ....but discussion on the point, not garbage.Even a new member came in to push his barrow . God only knows for what purpose. I don't see what "sacrificial anodes" has to do with my questions.I live on a boat for part of each year and am quite familiar with sacrificial anodes. I'm trying to set up a controller that feeds the excess unused power once the battery is charged to the hot water tank heater and I have looked at all the available options so none of the other stuff is relevent. THIS IS A DIRECT AND FOCUSED QUESTION. Edited 2020-02-25 09:07 by tytower |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
I like the ramblings of the old farts that use this forum  If you take time to listen to them, you find a wealth of knowledge. If you want a answer to a direct and focused question, take your circuit to a electronics technician and ask him for help, and then pay him for his time. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
You picked the wrong guy to argue with my friend, Giz may just decide to push the button and make you vanish. Cheers, Tony. |
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| tytower Newbie Joined: 19/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 21 |
Thats his perogative mate . You hanging on his shirt tails does not change that . I seek knowledge and a viable system . This may not be the place to get it . And I don't do argue ...I discuss openly and without bullsh*t. |
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| Solar Mike Guru Joined: 08/02/2015 Location: New ZealandPosts: 1138 |
Hey tytower, its difficult to comment on what you are building without a circuit dia, your video has it covered up. There have been numerous discussions in the past here about heating HWC element from PV panels and a number of members here myself included have built or played with the idea including postings of full schematics, circuit boards etc. I'm aware of the "Opera House" design but have never seen a complete schematic, so cannot really comment on its effectiveness, perhaps you can contact him via his channel. Cheers Mike |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Seems you like the direct style of forum posting. That's great, I do Too! Has anybody even looked at the video? Yes I have. All of them in fact. Has anybody any idea if it works or not? It probably works for him but I strongly believe there is a lot the guy is not showing or is misleading viewers on and the amount of water he is heating is very small and does not relate to normal household use. Has anybody built anything like it ? Like it? Yes, similar only completely Different. :0) Others here have built much better, much simpler and far more practical controllers. Has anybody any idea what they are doing here? Yes. I am here learning a lot and getting a lot of help from people far more knowledgeable than myself which I very much appreciate. There are people here infinitely smarter than you and I. Seems odd to berate people and be so arrogant when YOU are the one asking for help because YOU don’t know what you are doing. People here build things from scratch that make opera’s efforts look like kindergarten or my own. People ARE very helpful here and it would behoove you to be a bit more polite when asking for help and appreciate the fact the knowledgeable here even give you the time of day. If you don’t like the help and the way it is offered, Fk off and find somewhere more in line with your demands. Now your questions and accusations are answered…. I have watched all those vids and asked questions. In all honesty I fully believe the guy is a sociopath and just seeking attention and reverence I suspect he does not receive in his everyday life. He complains people don’t use the info he provides but what he shows is often only a part of the jigsaw Puzzle. I have asked him for help and explanations several times and I get lectures or indignant attitude completely UNLIKE what I have got here. He then says he wants people to understand what they are building in case they have to service it. People wouldn’t be able to own a refrigerator or a car if they had to build it so they could service it if something went wrong. For these and other reasons with what I have asked the guy and his indignant responses, I believe his vids are far more about self-gratification than actually helping people. I think he wants the ignorant like me to revere and worship him because plebs like us are the only ones interested in what he is doing because the knowledgeable don’t need his ideas and from what I have seen, he seems to be using things discussed here anyway. I have seen this exact same thing before and recognise it now even if I didn’t before. The other problem with his Vids is he prattles on about heating a very small amount of water with a pissant amount of power. 3-400W is good for the 25L of water he heats and that’s about it. Useless for me to heat a decent amount of water a family rather than a couple of older people are going to use. Multiplying it out to my own HWS, I have about 12x the amount of water and want a similar amount of heating power so that works out fairly well. I doubt they both shower ever day which while there is nothing wrong with that, just pointing out the hot water use is very low and would have to be in order to give the water a chance to heat upI have a similar size heater here at my Holiday house and I barely get a decent shower out of it. The women complain it does not give them enough time to wash their hair. Being on mains it recovers in an hour so we can get by with it. If it was solar and took all day…. Useless. Direct heating from solar has been covered here asked by yours truly and a lot of people were generous with their time and Warp even designed a circuit for me to build which I have started on. Yes, the subject wandered to other things, all of which I found interesting and learned a lot from. I have had an irrational compulsion to build something from an existing Chinese electronic board. One of those inexplicable things stuck in my mind that kept bugging me. With what I have learned from parts of the vids and little comments rather than what was shown which has largely been useless, and a great deal from the time people gave me here, I have finally worked out how to do this using these cheap low voltage boards to drive High voltage (220-260V) arrays attached to 4KW+ of panels to drive a 3.6Kw element at full power with reasonable efficiency. It’s a long way from great but to me it’s like first steps on the moon because I learned enough to make it work from my original idea. From here with the very basics done I may be able to improve upon it. Having stewed about this for almost a year if not more, I am feeling an unusual sense of satisfaction with this even though if I told the knowledgeable here how I have done it, They will probably laugh and have never even thought of it because it’s so simple and to them probably way too inefficient and they can work something out off the top of their heads that’s cheaper, more efficient and to them at least, much easier. Now I know how to do it, I’m laughing too because I can see how easy it is and the principals are so basic in electronics, but it’s opened up a whole load of ways of doing things using a variety of different boards. I’m trying to find the most readily available ones so I can do some vids and show people that do just want to build something to solve a problem how to do it, not demand they learn an entirely new skill set it takes many years to sufficiently understand. I have used and Modified The Poz calculator and while it is helpful, I have seen that direct connecting panels is HIGHLY inefficient up till the point where you have the same wattage PRODUCED by the panels ( not just Nameplate rating) as the element you are driving. I was playing with this last week and the best I could get by Ohm matching was about 50% of the panels rating. When I connected the same panels back to a grid tie inverter, I got much closer to 90% rating. I would expect the same sort of inefficiency even with a low Voltage element. I also discovered that the Voltage of the strings is largely irrelevant. I put over 400V on a 240V element and it pulled it down to 186v or so. It’s not the volts that count it’s the total wattage that matters. The closer you get to the elements wattage, the better the efficiency you get. IMHO, you are wasting your time fooling around with low power for this Job. I have seen some 48V elements that do 1500W which is worthwhile ( and You can get them for about $50 Glenn) But, when looking through the great pile and variety of panels I have, still difficult to match them up and under driving them voltage wise will only give you about 1000W and will go down from there. You could adapt them to one of the crude controllers I have worked out just by changing the input resistor Values to the bard but then if you are going to do that may as well just do the same for the element you have and be done with it if you have a reasonable amount of panels to drive it with. Using the mains voltage elements which I go to the local scrappy and get all I want for free, with a basic controller, and I do mean BASIC, you can run the things to capacity using enough panels. I’m interested to see what sort of performance I can get from running half the panels as well. From memory half voltage is ¼ heating value but could be wrong. Running the full amount of panels may not be necessary as one really only needs the tank in most cases to hit temp once a day in the amount of decent daylight hours available. For me that would be 6 ours at worst. One can add more panels to cover to a degree of cloudy weather but my system covers us for 3-4 days with no extra input so I would get probably get 5-6 days with enough input for a normal days heat up over that period. While haven’t built any of the opera type controllers, I would strongly suggest if you do want to heat more than a token amount of water, go to something higher voltage and more powerful. Yes, will require more panels but they its so easy and cheap to get used panels even for free these days that shouldn’t be a problem and will mean the difference between a useful amount of water every day and or plenty of cold showers. If one wanted to do something REALLY basic and crude but would get a far better result than a direct connection in low Voltage, Just get a PWM controller and a meter and ajust it to get the best output. Even if you set it for the 10-2 Period or 11-1, still going to get a lot more input and if you are around so you can adjust it every so often, you’ll do better still. All these setups are is an automatic PWM controller that self adjusts. This may not be the direct focused answer you are looking for but it should give you a heads up and save you wasting a lot of your time on what is shown on those Vids. |
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| tytower Newbie Joined: 19/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 21 |
Mate ! Good for you . That's what I'm talking about. I have the controller based on his Chinese inverter board built and turning the LED on and off and with it the timing capacitor giving a voltage out . He claims to be getting 4 amps out and also another 4 amps from the supercaps . If so 8 amps at 48 Volt or so will do the job admirably. I have a 48 volt water heater element and I've got 22 unused panels sitting aside the shed waiting for a use . I have another 12 panels feeding the grid and two more running a 100Ah 48 volt Lithium LiFePo4 alloy prismatic bank driving a 2000 watt inverter . (All panels 34Volts and 250 watts so 8 amps available with two in series.) My batteries are full in a couple of hours each day so I'm looking at putting that excess capacity to work. That's what I was hoping to do here but as you say it seems designed to be confusing because each word he utters is carefully correct but blowed if you can read the circuit diagrams or his pics of the wiring . Here's my circuit I have built . The LM431 device is easy enough to work out and that is just setting a point at which the timing capacitor on the board will be disengaged. That's his set point . When the battery bank goes below that point the inverter board shuts down and panel voltage goes to the solar controller to feed the batteries.From there though I'm stumped atm . Where do the supercaps attach . I have the panel attachment points sorted. The caps probably just go across the joined up output but with a 12 Volt zener in there I am only gonna get 12 Volts out I think and that won't run the 48 Volt element. I need 60 to 70 volts coming out. Anyway let me get the circuit and pics up here and maybe you can comment . I appreciate the effort you have put in to that answer.     Edited 2020-02-25 19:18 by tytower |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Don't know if that is just a description or a misunderstanding but as far as I know they are just regular Capacitors, not super caps which are a different thing. 8 amps at 48V is less than 400W. How much water you want to heat? It might warm a regular 250L Tank a few degrees but that's about it. To heat 250L of water from 20oC to 60oC in 6 hours you are going to need 2.5Kw input. Lets say you don't have a cold tank and start at 50oC, that's going to give you a heating power requirement of about a Kw. As I said, 400W is basicaly useless. I doubt that would even make up the difference between your winter and summer water mains temp difference. This being the case, what are you actually trying to do here? Are you trying to heat water or are you trying to build a water heater? My approach in your position would be to use what you have. Add more panels to the charger on the inverter. This will ensure that you will have more power longer in the day. As long as the panels are in parallel and not over volting the inverter you can add what you like. The inverter will take what it needs and the rest is irrelevant. If you over clock the charger ( all my GTI's have at least double the panel capacity as the inverter is rated for) it will mean there is more power earlier in the day, the charger/ inverter runs flat out much longer, it will run till later in the day and you will get better power when you need it most on the sh*tty days. As you have the 2 KW inverter which is going to be a lot more efficient than any cobbled up design the likes of you and I could come up with, use that. Put the 240V element back in the heater and use a cheap PWM controller to limit the power going in to say- 1500W depending what else you are driving, off the inverter. You can turn the heater down, off or give it what the inverter is capable of. OR get another inverter/charger and run the heater exclusively off that. Again, If you have enough panels, load them onto the inverter and use the batterys as a ballast only. I have done exactly this and it works fine. In my case I was driving a refrigerator and an Urn or Kettle. If you have enough panels, The battery's effectively become ballast and the power is in effect coming direct from the panels when the sun is out. To automate it, I would use a Voltage sensitive relay Pretty much what I am using. They are on ebay, $10. Use a Voltage divider and set it up for the 48V battery you are running. Once the voltage drops below what the charger is set at meaning the battery's are being drained, it switches off. This way you can use a decent amount of power and get a useful amount of power into decent amount of water. I just wouldn't be bothering with the 48V element. I'm thinking of a couple of ways you could use that but keep coming back to low efficiency and going the inverter/ PWM mode being cheaper, simpler and more efficient. Now, IF your object is to build a water heater, then I can't really help you with anything in that vid. I couldn't get my head round any of it either and the circuit I was kindly given here and what I came up with myself to me is infinitely easier and will be far more effective. What I was given here was no strings attached and done out of pure good will. Unfortunately, I think you have already pissed off the people here that could help you with your previous arrogant replies on the design you are working on. As I said, I believe what he really wants is people asking for his help so he can be passive aggressive and belligerent and make out he is superior. That is about the limit of my pathetic knowledge on this. I used some snippets of what he is doing and found my own way because that was easier than trying to understand WTF he was doing and describing. Edited 2020-02-25 20:33 by Davo99 |
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| tytower Newbie Joined: 19/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 21 |
Yeh realise this . It will run in a system that pumps water through a half inch black plastic coil on the roof . The power is for the element but also for the small circulation pump.The other consideration is that putting a transformer on the inverter board output as its meant to be used with pulses out either side of a center tapped transformer would produce 240 Volts and I'm toying with the idea of trying that on a 240 v heater element simply to reduce losses through doing the same via my battery bank and inverter set up . Not much cost to get a transformer for 400Watts.? I wondered what you were referring to ,my circuit or another? Yes maybe, but I wasn't getting anywhere until you came in . Incredibly frustrating when you seek answers from smart people and get ramblings from others . No matter how you express yourself someone is always going to dislike it . I have learned to just tell them to piss off and usually their contribution is worthless anyway. Its always pleasantly surprising when someone who actually knows what they are talking about replies.If you think I am arrogant why? Because I tell them to piss off ? Is that arrogance? I think not. The internet is plagued with them ,they age,stop doing things themselves,sit in a chair and start telling others what to do . Not discussing stuff but telling them what to do . It is a way of communicating for them even though they are sedentiary. Just a waste of talent really . If the admin said "look just confine your posts to something that contributes to the thread , that could all change . That is about the limit of my pathetic knowledge on this. I used some snippets of what he is doing and found my own way because that was easier than trying to understand WTF he was doing and describing. You are belittling yourself and it does not suit you.nor does it fit with what you post.You are trying t help ...I think.So what parts of his production are you using ? Edited 2020-02-26 09:15 by tytower |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Mate, I have been kicked from more forums than I can remember because limp wristed snowlakes can't handle the way I post things but the way you have come in here and ranted and put sh*t on people for no reason is over the top even for me and I doubt you will find many more thick skinned than I am. The people here are nothing like you describe and if you pulled your head out your self important nether regions long enough, you just might have enough smarts to see that. Seems to me you and the Opera bloke have a lot n common and should get on like a house on fire. He seems to have a superiority complex and a huge chip on his shoulder as well. The people you are berating on multiple threads here are the people that have given me very generous help and their time which I appreciate. No one here has given you any crap and in fact put up with a lot of your abuse before they said anything in retaliation. An amount of normal civility, Humility and respect would have got you a lot further here. I got to say, the fact you think I know something makes me laugh. I am literally the village idiot here but I'm a little less of an idiot thanks to the literal geniuses that have given me their time to enlighten me. I'm no suck but I do appreciate anyone giving me help. Not many do and I don't take it lightly. You have for some reason come in with all guns blazing for reasons I can't fathom, and pissed off the very people you would have learned the most from. I have a mental problem with aggression and I can see you do to. That's not an insult, it's a recognition and admission of fact. Wether you know it or not or if it's been diagnosed, I don't know. You will probably deny it which means it hasn't which is unfortunate because nothing can be done till you face it. I don't think this place is for you and out of respect for the people that have helped me that you want to insult and berate, there is nothing more I want to discuss with you. I love the subject because it's the one thing I do have a fraction of knowledge about here but I'm not going to condone your rantings and tantrums to good people here. Just because they are too polite and gentlemanly to tell you to fk off doesn't mean I am so consider told. Good luck with the next forum you find. I think you have worn out your welcome already here well and truly. |
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