Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961
Posted: 08:10pm 01 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
I'm new to solar
I have done a lot of reading and a lot of research
But I overlooked the most important thing when going to solar
Not taking the advice of people that's been there done that
So the best advice I can give someone when going solar would be
just because you've done a lot of research and thank you know what you need
you don't and it's going to cost you
Talk to people that has been there and done that before you buy anyting
companies want to sell stuff that's what they're in business for
Real people real life experience that's the advice to you need to take advantage of
And that's what this post is for
This form has a vast amount of knowledge and information on it
There's electrical engineers programmers electricians electronic technician back shedders of course
and vast amounts of other people with experience and have been there and done that
And the awesome thing about it is
it's all free!!! You just have to be willing to listen
anyone that has been there and done that
and would want to share their knowledge or mistakes please do so hereEdited by BenandAmber 2019-05-03be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks
LadyN Guru Joined: 26/01/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 408
Posted: 09:02pm 01 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
Agreed!
It would be safe to say that approaching this like any system engineering perspective would maximize the chances of success.
1. Lay out your requirements to as much details as possible 2. Figure out what you need 3. Figure out what you have 4. Fill the gap using a weighted coefficient checklist. Weights/coefficient per item in the checklist can be thought of as a priority proxy 5. Iterate and optimize adding to the checklist
For me, most of the solar advice was to go the 12V or 24V route.
That's how things are done. Youtube is full of them.
So purchase low volume (hence expensive) 12V or 24V PV panels; thick cables; inverters; batteries; MPPT chargers etc
Instead I followed the above 5 steps and landed with rejected grid tie panels that are produced (and trashed) at volume. There are so many damaged panels locally that I now have to consider what kind I get because they take too much space.
I get away with using regular landscape wire and my family's power tools, our chargers, lights, blenders just run fine straight off PV!
I can "kinda" loadshare with the grid when PV power is not enough.
NO thick cables; inverters; batteries.
This is far from ideal. by far, but it proves what's possible.
I now need to "Iterate and optimize" so I can drive heating elements to heat water and obtain zero crossings via DC so that AC rated switches don't weld, damaging themEdited by LadyN 2019-05-03
BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961
Posted: 09:42pm 01 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
U go ladyN
have you ever thought about unwinding Transformers
When you do this you can rewind it with whatever size hole you want
I used 4 Transformers to make my big Transformer they were just a tiny bit smaller around then the ones you have but they were just a tiny bit taller
There is an article on this form telling you all about it how to do it
I have been told by the man himself that the wire is what mainly determines your wattage the bigger core dissipates Heat better though
With this being said how often are you going to be running over 3000 or so watts
and for how long you may find that a smaller core with a bigger hole and bigger wire might just be fine for you
Of course don't take my word for it run it by warpspeed
I could be wrong but that was my understanding
I can send you what I have left of those toroids and you might just be able to come up with something you're happy with
I have done this but haven't got it wound yet
I am waiting on spray enamel to get here I bought 3 cans 15oz per can for $22 off of eBay and the spray enamel is purpose made for enameling wire
I will be doing some testing on enameling regular wire to see how well it could be done diy with this method
The wire that came off that big Square Transformer was in really bad shape so I am re enameling it
At this point I wouldn't recommend doing this on regular wire with no enamel already on it but that may change I'll let you know
be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks
LadyN Guru Joined: 26/01/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 408
Posted: 10:26pm 01 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
Ben, thank you!
OK, honestly, compared to unwinding Transformers, I am really excited about learning how to make my own toroids from you.
You have changed the game completely with that. I can't wait to look at the results of an oZverter, and later a warpverter, made with your handmade toroids.
For now, I am working on getting a working DC system. I have a long long way to go there.
Then comes AC - I'm sure by then, you will have posts and videos showing how to make our own toroids. I am, as always, available to help you with any details.
BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961
Posted: 10:43pm 01 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
Thank you very much for the kind words but I didn't change the game
I got the information off someone else
they're on this form and have a post that tells you everything about it they've even done testing
Now I haven't read anywhere where someone made their own enameled wire
that is something I'm very interested in because of the cost
It's pretty easy for me to get regular wire seems like it's just always falling in my lap
And I do think anyone could get it pretty cheap from a recycling center or other use locations
Edited by BenandAmber 2019-05-03be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks
LadyN Guru Joined: 26/01/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 408
Posted: 10:48pm 01 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
I always welcome an opportunity to learn.
Can you give me a link about the post(s) about building toroids from scratch.
To clarify, I am not talking about rewinding toroids with existing cores but making the core from steel laminations like you posted pictures of, which were extremely inspirational!
BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961
Posted: 10:49pm 01 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
azhaque is the one that gave the link
And I think he's the one that's done all the experimenting
You might have to get a hold of him so I can't find it
Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll put another link on this page can't have enough links to this awesome informationEdited by BenandAmber 2019-05-03be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks
MasterCATZ Regular Member Joined: 25/03/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 52
Posted: 01:26am 08 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
I had someone rock up last week wanting 10x 250w panels .. all they wanted to do was charge 1x 12v car battery to run LED lights ... I gave them a shattered hail damaged panel to use ...
hotwater Senior Member Joined: 29/08/2017 Location: United StatesPosts: 120
Posted: 12:41pm 08 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
I don't know what is wrong with that. I have 2500W of panels and a 12V battery. I think it is an ideal system. Not quite, I'm about to add more panels. People generally start out too small of panels and too much battery.
MasterCATZ Regular Member Joined: 25/03/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 52
Posted: 12:50pm 08 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
well for one a 250 watt panel will fry a car battery, 0.2C 20% of battery capacity so a 120ah battery can only be charged @ 288 watts .. 10x pannels .. would have been cooking it :P tho I must admit 2x 250watt panels to fully charge it , but if its that low its going to be dead anyhow
yes but you have more AH
hotwater Senior Member Joined: 29/08/2017 Location: United StatesPosts: 120
Posted: 05:50pm 08 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
Well, I don't approach solar like other people. Only one conclusion can be drawn drawn from that, everybody else is wrong. It is a very custom system and the battery is not required to provide more than 6AH of storage, enough to keep me alive at night. If a battery doesn't discharge more than 10%, it is pretty hard to get a lot current into it. It works quite well. Don't try this at home. It is just for the wizards.
LadyN Guru Joined: 26/01/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 408
Posted: 06:29pm 08 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
The more realistic option is that they are clueless/uninformed.
If I had never discovered this forum, I would not have the 130V DC GTI PV powered system I have now.
Having a hard time reigning in my dad and brothers from running their tools off off it. They can't wait for me to let them run their tools.
I will be building them a DC rated switch using N-Channel mosfets so they dont ruin the AC rated switches and contacts those tools come with.
My laptop, fan are all running off PV right now.
NO inverters.
Next step will be handling the HWS - there are two 220V rated heated elements, 12 Ohm nominal.
There's a complicated thermostat setup - one per element plus the ECO for the top element.
220V comes in to the top element unit and from there, power routes to the bottom element.
I have traced the wiring but don't know what's inside the top box.
The bottom element box is obviously a thermostat in series, but the top box is a black box to me!
4 terminals on the left, 3 terminals on the right.
Have been looking for a disassembly or schematic for the internals and no luck so far :'(Edited by LadyN 2019-05-10
BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961
Posted: 07:18pm 08 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
LadyN
On the back of those element thermostats you will see a little hole
Find a toothpick or something and push in on that little hole you will hear a click
It is a piece of bi metal that opens a set of points when the temperature gets too high
It is a safety feature
put your multimeter on continuity test and probe out the connections
and then take note after you pop the little bi metal which connections became open circuit
The ones with the little red button on the front are resettable
and you have to push the red button to reset it
the ones without the red button you have to hold in for open circuit
so another words you got to hold pressure in on it to have an open circuit
unless the temperature is high enough to make it switch open
If you're going to be heating water you have to have redundancy for safety
Back in the day hot water heaters literally blew up
and went through upstairs floor upstairs rough and out into the yard killing people along the way
Hot water heaters nowadays have a pressure release valve also along with the safety measures I mentioned earlier you have to have all of these
Or you risk killing yourself or someone else
I'm not trying to be mean about it
I know a guy that lost the use of a leg because of the hot water heater when he was a child
Extreme Caution must be taken when heating water in a closed vesselEdited by BenandAmber 2019-05-10be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks
LadyN Guru Joined: 26/01/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 408
Posted: 07:35pm 08 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
Ok, if I take off those thermostats (after killing power to it), will water come out or something?
Is taking off those little black thermostat boxes easy and putting them back on again?
I can turn off the water heater, take a shower to get the water cold and then do this
I am happy to tinker as long as we won't need a plumber or electrician to put it back again.
BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961
Posted: 10:22pm 08 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
What I'm saying is those little black boxes keep your water from getting so hot it makes your water tank explode
If you do away with that then you only have one safety device and that is the pressure release valve and they sometimes stick
be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks
LadyN Guru Joined: 26/01/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 408
Posted: 11:46pm 08 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
No, I definitely do not want to do away with them at all.
I dont know how they work so:
1. I want to remove them from the HWS tank when the tank is cold and switched off 2. I want to try out the various leads on them and try and figure out how they connect without breaking them 3. Once I have the data I need, I plan to connect them back exactly as they were
My questions were:
i. If I remove them, will the HWS tank start leaking water or something? The reason why I ask is, as you mentioned, there is a hole at the back of these little boxes - what goes into the hole? Air or water?
ii. Is it easy to remove them and put them back without major hassle?
BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961
Posted: 11:44pm 09 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
Just air nothing will leak unless you take an actual element out
You're going to find that those are very simple
The thermostat breaks the circuit or connects the circuit and the safety breaks the circuit when it gets above a certain temperature
like I said you can push in on them with a toothpick or something the thermostat is the one that you have to hold in and the one that clicks and stays open circuit is the safetyEdited by BenandAmber 2019-05-11be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks
LadyN Guru Joined: 26/01/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 408
Posted: 11:50pm 09 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
OK.
Told the brother that I was planning to learn about the setup and turns out he's going to start an extension job at a house that needs to be demo'd. He's pretty sure that house has an electric water heater; he will check tomorrow.
So this weekend I might get to look at another electric water heater and since there will be no power or water to it, I will be pretty safe checking it out.
Can't wait!
BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961
Posted: 01:30am 10 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
The biggest thing I think you would have to overcome is trying to figure out if the DC voltage will hurt the points in the thermostat and the safety cut out
I know I read somewhere a while back where you can use a regular off-the-shelf AC hot water heater element with DC it is a certain element I think they so you would have to research it
They may already make something like this for DC not sure you'd have to do a Google searchEdited by BenandAmber 2019-05-11be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks
hotwater Senior Member Joined: 29/08/2017 Location: United StatesPosts: 120
Posted: 06:21pm 10 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard
Print this post
Under 30V DC is always safe, tungsten a little higher. There are ways to reduce the voltage differential for the time it takes to open. Thought you were using pulsed DC. The smaller black box just above the thermostat is the thermal overload safety switch. It mechanically opens and has to be manually reset. It should always be directly in series with the element. This is generally only included in the upper thermostat, but can be added to a lower thermostat.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
Print this post
