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Forum Index : Solar : Silicon Chip poor advice on off grid.
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
I stopped buying Silicon Chip magazine a few years ago, various reasons but mainly I was unhappy with the editors anti renewable, right wing stance. Its a electronics magazine, not a soap box. But every month I browse through the latest copy at the newsagent, to see if there was anything of interest enough to buy the magazine. I noticed there has been a change in editor, and I saw a mailbag letter about the true cost of off grid solar, so I bought the January edition so I could read the mailbag letter in detail and see if SC had changed their anti-renewable stance. Seams little has changed. Both the letter and rely are very short sighted, incorrect and anti-renewables. The letter was from a "Dick Smith", dont know if this is the "Dick Smith", or another. Dick suggests SC(silicon Chip) do a article about the cost for a typical off grid installation, and he then claims the average household in Australia uses 25kWh per day. This is wrong, I've found figures ranging from 10kWh to 22kWh, depends on the location, local climate, etc. North Sydney, for example, has a average of 11kWh, where Singleton is 23kWh. This figure is decreasing as people migrate to LED lighting, etc. Dick then claims you would almost need to cover your whole block of land in solar panels to get enough power. Well a small 800m2 block of land has 800kW of sun falling on it. Say we use cheap 14% efficient solar cells, we generate 112kW! That's enough for a dozen houses, not one. Dick claims we could have 4 or 5 days of virtually no sun in Sydney. Ignoring the fact solar can still generate power in overcast conditions ( my 3.8kW of solar can still make 300 watts on the darkest of overcast days ), Dick then claims we need 250kWh of battery storage to cover those overcast days. 250kWh! Dick claims therefore the cost of off grid is enormous ( it would be using his figures ), and those with solar panels are been subsidized by pensioners, party true, but missleading. Of course, Silicon Chip did no research, and decided to use Dicks figures to do some "back of envelope calculations". SC said you could possibly manage with just 10kW of solar, but that wont fit on most roofs ( must be a small house, lets face it, if your using 25kWh a day, its a big house! ). SC say a 10kW inverter would be needed as a minimum, and you would need $90,000 worth of lithium battery storage. So according to SC you need to budget on $150,000 to go off grid. SC suggest you borrow the money, and allow for periodic replacement of panels, batteries and inverter. Batteries yes, but panels and inverter should last many decades. I would expect better of a electronics magazine, but not SC, the reply was typical. Now how about some real figures. I live off grid. I have 3.8kW of solar panels, approx $5000 at today's price. I have a Latronics 7kW inverter, about $5000, its the biggest they make, and has a peak output of 20kW. I have 11kWh of batteries, flooded lead acid, $2000. My charge controller was home made, but expect to pay $1000 for a good one. That's $13,000 excluding mounting hardware and labour. I use gas for cooking, about $75 a years worth. Solar hot water, with a gas backup. My place is a 2 person household ( 2 people use little more than 1 person, no teenagers ). I use power tools, including a lathe, mig welder, drop saw, etc. Inverter has no issues with these. I'm on a rural property, so also run water pressure pumps and a bore. I have air conditioning in my home office, computers running constantly, big TV, lights, the usual household power needs. I boil my water in a electric kettle, use a toaster and microwave. I replace my batteries every 5 years. $2000 ( less actually if you shop around ), plus I can take the old batteries to be recycled and get a little scrap metal cash in return. So in reality, excluding initial cost, my power costs less than $2000 per 5 years, $400 a year. I have never been left in the dark, never had a black out. On overcast days I watch my usage, but dont make any real sacrifices, for example, I'll boil the kettle on the gas stove instead of using the electric kettle. So if you looking for good sound advise on off grid power, dont read Silicon Chip. Instead talk to people who have actual real experience in going off grid, and no political motives. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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Madness Guru  Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Sounds like that was not Mr. Smith but Mr. Head! I run all the normal appliances including dishwasher, electric oven, side by side fridge, chest freezer and 2 air conditioners but they are limited to when there is plenty of sun. All this runs off 9.5KW of panels and a 775AH 48V battery (37KWH), DIY Inverter all up owes me less than $10,000, but I have bought mostly second hand and DIY as much as possible. The average nightly drawdown of the battery is 20%, I could go 3 days of very dark cloudy weather before I would need to start a generator. If I had a 250KWH battery I could go a month with no sun at all. There are Alt Right fools around the place, even tony abbott has been proven wrong saying that you can't run a steel mill off solar. But in SA it is going to be done shortly and they expect to be a net exporter of power. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Homegrow47 Newbie  Joined: 17/08/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
My house (1 person) uses 4kWh average per day. And that is with electric cooking and hotwater, and at home most of the time, believe it or not. My 1KW of panels (area 8 sqm) generates about as much as I use. But I am still on grid. If someone was going off grid, they would naturally be more careful with their usage. |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
I dont know where he is getting his figures from, but I would dispute several even for ongrid homes eg My sisters place has 5.5kw of roof panels and could accommodate twice that a pinch, despite being a small house approx 200m^2 total footprint 20x10 at the eaves With solar HWS (boost turned off except in bad midwinter weather) and normally 2 ceiling fans running basically 24/7, the average bill varied 11-19kwhr daily with 2 people, the nominal 5kw (5.5kw of panels) panels are currently producing 35-37kwr daily (relatively new, so dont know winter figures yet) If we actually got paid the same rate for excess to the grid as we paid for consumption, we would be atm making a nice profit every day as we are exporting twice as much as me are consuming- as it is, at best we can only hope to reduce the bills to around 300 a quarter Given battery prices (not ripoff grid connects like powerwalls) I figured to payback to add batterys and kill the grid connect would only be a few years with existing panels etc, even my mum has started thinking about partially going offgrid at least to begin with Far from being a pipe dream, its fast becoming practically a necessity- unless you are a millionaire, current and future electricity prices are literally going to send people broke |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
I agree that an electronics magazine should not be biased one way or the other but it's very apparent from the tone of you post you wouldn't be complaining if they were biased towards renewables. If that's the case, With respect and apologies, you are in fact being hypocritical. It's like all these " alternative energy" sites. Since when was it a law that making your own power HAD to be all about the environment and saving the world etc? I'm fed to death with all this leftist crap of putting guilt trips on people that don't subscribe to the green religion. I'm interested in making my own power to: 1. save money, 2. be a bit independent, 3 as an interest/ hobby that pays for itself rather than costs me money, 4 an interest to learn about and something to read up on when I can't sleep and night and get my mind off the demons that keep me awake. Sorry for whoever it upsets that saving the world isn't on that list but there are so many holes in the environmental thing that prove it's a money maker not a real belief for big biz and gubbermints it's a joke. The irony is I am a hell of a lot more green in what I do every day even though I think the environmental thing is a farce than most of the people that jump up and down about it. Been running my vehicles on veg oil for 15 years. Putting solar on the roof as fast as I can buy used panels and aiming to get my grid bill as low as possible. Been offsetting power bills with veg oil fueled generation. Couldn't give a damn about the green causes but I do more for the causes than most of the people that carry on about them. It seems OK if you are green biased but god forbid you should not be for it or even against it. There is only one correct way to think and the hypocrisy is infuriating. As far as an average house using 25KW a day, I'd say that is on the low side depending how you measure it. Statistics are rarely accurate in they take a wide variety of numbers and average them out to something that is in reality a small overall percentage of where that number is accurate. If you take into account 1 and 2 bedroom units, hmm,yep, 11-15Kwh I can see. Freestanding home I'd say 25 kwh easily. But the variable of what is average are huge. Single bedroom studio apartment with one yuppie who's never home anyway or free standing house with 2 parents and 2 kids. I use more like 35 Kw day on average and so does everyone else around here on acreages. $1200 a quarter power bill is considered normal by everyone here I have spoken to. We hve to have pumps going 24/7 and the extreme climate make AC an essential. My Brother in law with a pool at his place round the corner pushes over 40 Kw a day and that is NOT out of the ordinary round here. This is a lifestyle area and people are here to enjoy life not worry about co2 emissions or whatever. Many do have solar, many have huge areas of their roofs covered. Like me, they want to have all the comforts but have invested to lower the running cost. At my last smaller place, again, more than 25Kw hr a day and the old lady whom lived on her own up the road was the same. All electric homes as town gas was not available in the area as it is not here. Gas consumption needs to be taken into account when comparing overall energy consumption. Going by what my mate pays for power who lives alone in a unit with gas, yeah, maybe 11 -15 KWh a day but he's a bit different anyhow in that he never uses any form of heating or cooling and that is unusual not typical. To say that's an average power use of north Sydney I suspect is highly skewed by thousands of Professionals whom live in units in the area and are barely ever home. Look at the HOUSES there however, as few as there might be further skewing the numbers and that would be bunk. According to the chart on the back of my power bill, a single person dwelling uses about 12.5 Kwh day. A 4 person home uses 26 Kwh. In this greater area, 4 person homes would be significantly higher proportion than single occupants. In the inner city, I well imagine that would be the complete opposite. Again, how are the numbers calculated? If you look at what I am TAKING FROM THE GRID as against USING, then yeah, 11KW day would be overkill for me. That's not what I am USING however. I'm generating up to 37 Kwh a day and on those days due to teh accompanying heat, I know i'm using more thanks to the AC. Cooler days seem to do in the low 30's and I get well ahead those days. last 3 days have all been overcast and I haven't cracked 20 Kwh or come close to it. As for the AC, Yep, I could not turn it on and sweat like a pig all day and not sleep at nigh but I want some comfort in my life and I am prepared to pay for it. If others are worried about Co2 emissions or whatever, that's their choice to make the same as I have mine. Usage as against taken from the grid are 2 very different things and it's the same for anyone with panels on their roof now and there are a lot of us. The " Average" is a misleading number straight off from that POV alone. Heres a link to "average" power bills and formulations. https://www.mountalexander.vic.gov.au/files/Environment/What_is_a_Typical_Energy_Consumption_Presentation.pdf This average has to be clarified. People in units can't have solar so their numbers should be deleted from the calculations and only homes, freestanding ones that can have power on the roof should be what the numbers are calculated on. Now I agree the cost of Off grid figures are off as stated but so is every other number here. 25Kw for a HOUSE that could go off grid unlike a Unit or townhouse than Cannot IS more accurate than not. The cost of Offgrid is what you make it although I doubt need to be anything like $150K or near that. If you DIY it and watch every watt you use and offset with gas,have a generator and other things not normally found in an on grid home then yeah, your cost to setup and run annually could be very low. If you want to live the same as you would on grid and have Air conditioning for heating and cooling, use electric appliances whenever you want and not devote your life to energy saving and have to have everything commercially made and professionally installed, then the numbers will be different. The argument of off grid and solar cost and consumption is wrong but to me it seems you are more upset at the fact it does not show Solar/ renewable in the favorable light you want it to rather than the fact the numbers are inaccurate and are mad at poor journalism for what it is. If they were inaccurate in favor of what you support, would you be posting and complaining? I get the impression you would not so there is possibly more than one bias at play here.  |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
I was renting a farmhouse up north for a while, and the elec bill there (bore pump, household pressure pump etc, no modern lighting (leds alone slash bills) and the highest I ever saw it was just over 600 for the quarter- that was with a welder and grinders running 8hrs a day for 6 weeks, heat lamps for paint drying, the works Highest I have personally seen was a place that had a pool, aircon that ran 24/7, and it was close to 2000 a quarter (the owner complained about the bills, but left the aircon running 24/7- go figure...) A family house might get to 25kwhr daily, but most I know of are hell on the kids for turning stuff off, the other costs of having kids mean elec bills have to be kept low We dont have gas here, all cooking done elec, heating is putting on a jumper (a few weeks a year) and we hit 19kwhr a day- with 2 visitors and a leaking HWS that went cold 6 hrs after you turned off the booster, like that for 4 weeks- and yet we still stayed under 20kwhrs a day.... with the panels we are now a net exporter (who was it that had the SA graphs that showed solar households were effectively a net exporter most of the time? |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Whether you are green or not renewables are making sense, it is pity our government can't get over their addiction to revenue from coal. Solar power is getting cheaper and power from the grid is getting more expensive. Not to mention the reliability of the grid. There are plenty of greeny haters with solar panels on their roof. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Has anyone said anything about saving the planet? I went off grid because the quote to get power connected was more expensive! It was about cost for me, not saving the planet. The point of this post is Silicon Chip have provided some very misleading figures on off grid power. $150,000 for the average household to go off grid is about 5 to 10 times the actual cost. $25kWh a day is on the high end, not the average. That document you linked to even states for Queensland the average is under 19kWh a day, less for NSW. Only the extreme "Household 1" uses over 25kWh a day, with electric everything, 2 plasma TV, swimming pool, electric hot water, etc. We then have household 2, 3 and 4 to look at, with much lest consumption. And on a personal note, do not assume I'm a tree hugging left wing voter, you would be wrong! I have voted for both sides of politics, and wont hesitate to cut down a tree if needed. But I also have a finely tuned BS detector, and that Silicon Chip reply was all BS. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Homegrow47 Newbie Joined: 17/08/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
For anyone connected to the grid, it would not make economic sense to go off grid. Not by a long shot. I may be wrong, that's just my impression. Unless maybe its an all DIY installation with very judicious purchasing of equipment. |
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| M Del Senior Member  Joined: 09/04/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 155 |
I stopped buying Renew magazine as it started to get all high tech, big buildings and expensive in it's articles. Stand alone solar in any form is very expensive, nothing under $65.000 will give more than 5kwhr a day useage. Home built & designed is not an efficient way to do things, only brand name is long lasting. Good ecological houses are around 400mtr in size and full of tech. It used to be all about small, simple and owner built, easily replicated ideas etc, but seems to have lost it's way over the last couple of years. Mark |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
Probably not yet, but that time is approaching fast (I saw recently on the debate on the SA debacle, that prices are expected to rise 33% by 2020), with grid connect 'powerwalls' and the like entering the market and the public awareness, I suspect a lot more people will begin to think of offgridding, or partial offgridding, a lot more seriously Once they start to get widespread usage of the 'powerwalls' (there are already several brands available, not all obviously called powerwalls, afaik that actually is the Tesla product trademark) it becomes a small step to 'I am making and storing my own electricity, why am I paying several hundred dollars a quarter for that bit of wire to the street I am not even using???' Obviously not every property is suitable, but many are, and I think that suitability for partial or total offgrid usage will become a major (although not the only) factor in many peoples choices in a house and property I am in the process of selling my house, and its total unsuitability (due to design and location) for solar means that I am taking quite a hit on its value, many buyers are turned off by not having the solar option these days, even if it is only a grid connect (one agent told me that I was probably losing 50g in my final sale price due to no solar or possibility of having it fitted- fitting a 4k array could gain me 50g in final sale price) |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I take this meant to be tongue in cheek as it is complete bullsh*t. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
This being the case, I sincerely and humbly apologise. I am also very glad to be wrong even if it does leave egg on my face. I agree the article priceing was wrong for solar cost but I reiterate that the " average" consumption is a very wide spread set of actual usage averaged out and does not come near reflecting real world use for the majority of people no matter how much power they actually consume or self generate. My electricity bill confirms that and I'm sure any other companies does that has similar charts and Data. |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
George you may also not be aware that Gizmo owns www.backshed.com. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
True, but dont ever feel you should not criticize me if you disagree with my views. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Okay I will keep that in mind Glenn, good to know who is who in the zoo though. Although there are forums that people don't want to post on for fear of being criticized. There was an element of that here a year or 2 ago but that seems to have turned around for the better. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Hi George, Here in France, I am banned from certain, 'Fluffy Bunny' type Sustainable/Renewable Energy Mags and publications. Why am I banned, because, as my MRS says, "You say it as it is, and folk selling these type of 'Green Wash' publications do not want your realistic reality". You also have to remember that I am upsetting the commercial guys who just retail and make a living on a cut of the products themselves, and they advertise in those mags. So here's me making stuff, publishing 'How To Do' stuff, all got international ISBN numbers, And actually showing folk how to make stuff at a fraction of the cost of commercial guys. Slowly but surely I am getting some serious grass root support from my local well meaning hard core Green nutters!. Its all about Education Education Education. Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
I have looked at specifically the tesla powerwalls several times and they are not financialy viable....anywhere in the world it seems. If one looks at local costs for the unit and local power costs, assumes a full cycle every day, ( ie, maxumum and unrealistic favourable biased payback) the things are not abole to save the cost of purchase over their expected life time. The shortfall is significant enough that it would take massive increases in power prices or a virtual halving of the cost of the powerwall units to make the things show a return on their investment. I have corresponded with a number of people around the US and they confirm the same thing to me. I have seen ads where people say they are saving hundreds off their power bills but the figures do not add up in the best case scenario so I can't see how they add up any other way. But hey, It's tesla, the masters of Hype, BS and broken promises so hardly a surprise. I was talking to a guy at a party before Christmas. He works for a group of solar installers ( Multi state/ office) and they have just sent their clients whom have lodged orders or deposits on powerwalls a letter saying they are no longer going to be distributing the product due to the endless delays in getting stock. They feel they are getting i'll will and a tarnishing of the company's reputation because tesla keeps giving them delivery dates for the units which they pass onto their customers and then keep failing to live up to them and pushing dates back further. The company has offered to supply similar products from other manufacturers or give their clients a refund. basically they just want to distance themselves from tesla and their endless broken promises as far as possible. The guy said they are busy with installs and this makes planning their work a nightmare. They try to allow to install the back ordered products to get them to the customers whom are understandably not happy but then the units don't turn up again and their scheduling as thrown to heck again. I have not crunched the numbers on any other similar devices so cannot speak as to their Viability but I suspect many others are more of a feel good than a wise investment when the chips are down. The one that seems to offer the best value for money as far as my research goes is good old lead acid battery packs. there is a company in Sydney selling Forklift battery packs with a self watering setup they gaurantee for 5 years for $2500 for a 30 kwh pack. A fraction of the price of a tesla and many times the capacity. Of course you would need inverters with that and have maintence but that's not a problem for a lot of people at all. Personally, I'd be extremely to pony up for anything tesla atm. The longevity of the company to me is anything but a sure thing. They are waaay behind on production on the model 3 having just pushed back delivery dates again. This was the car that was supposed to pay off their huge and impending loans that fall due later this year. Power wall production is not up to promises and financial experts raising significant doubts about their cash flow situation and ability to see this year out. They are burning through more cash than ever atm and are getting closer to crunch time every day going downhill rather than showing any signs of going up. Elons Hype and fan boy appeasing will not do him a shed of good when it comes to the Financial investors wanting to know where their money is. They will need to pull a BIG rabbit out the hat and so far they can't even make good on their cheap and easy to build car production. Warranty on any of their products won't be worth much if they fall over leaving massive debt behind. maybe the US gov may give a bail out to consumer if not the company itself. I have seen talk of this as relating to the downward spiral of the grid. Theory is the more people that go off grid the higher the price will be for people still on it motivating them to get off and so it goes. Not sure what my position is on that. As you say, not everyone can get off and whats' the critical mass so to speak? People in units and town houses won't have any choice and they are throwing up these places much faster then stand alone homes in Sydney and o0ther places. The majority of business and many other entities won't be able to ditch either as they would not have the ability to provide for their needs with solar even if they did have Batteries. I spose one would have to look at the amount of people that COULD go it alone and see what the numbers and effect would be from there. One thing you can be 100% certain of, the power companies will be monitoring consumer opinions and doing research to see what the breaking point is. They are a big business which of course is all about profit. Production cost is irrelevant, they work on a " what the market can bear" pricing structure so they will keep pushing for the most they can get price point in perpetuity. they will well know where their max profit point is and the number of people leaving them will be irrelevant as long as their pricing is making the most revenue for them possible. Where are you located? I bought here in august and spent about 2 years looking around. Not once did I ever even hear mention of a lack of solar being a drawback nor the feature of it being an assett. For me in fact a place NOT having solar was an assett because that also meant it did not have those rotten smart meters. The places we did see with solar were all outdated 1.5/2 K systems and virtually worthless anyway. I'm curious how something you can buy easily for $5K can devalue ( or raise) the value of a property by $50k. I'm in Sydney and you'd be more likely to sell your house because it didn't have solar and was 1K cheaper than the place next door than it being any sort of a passing concern in this market. If fitting a 4Kw array would raise the value of your home $50K why the hell wouldn't you do that straight away? Irrelevant to you if it's shaded or not, you won't be there, but if it motivates a buyer to pay even $25K more, it would be a no brainer. I drive around all the time and see panels in pointless situations. Behind lines of trees, on south facing roof and completely wrong angles, shaded half the day by other buildings and so it goes. |
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renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
I live in a freestanding small 2br house, Melbourne does have pretty hot summers so AC is a requirement, but not all year. We use on average 10kwh a day with 2 adults and 1 child, not too conscious of usage, so we must be naturally good with power. We have gas hot water, gas stovetop, electric oven. AC was the old bang on bang off type, which has just been replaced with an inverter type last week (6/10ths power consumption). 10kw a day should be pretty easy to cover with solar and batteries. Buying 5kw of solar second hand can be got for 1k, buying two sets, building an ozinverter and off the shelf 48v charge controllers, 800ah @48v forklift battery will set you back under 10k easy. That's my plan, when finished I'll be completely independent. Cheers Mark PS George, mate I love your passion and ability to have a good rant, my fingers would get sore from all that typing. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
If I have to tow the greenwashed line and the policy is that everything about alternative energy has to be about saving the planet and reducing Co2 etc, I don't want to be a part of it anyway. I have seen a lot of places like that and it was probably my fault through it I made the incorrect assumption that was going on here. As I said, glad to be wrong about that even if if did lead to embarrassment of myself. |
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