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Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 12:58pm 02 Nov 2012
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Hi All!
Wanting to discuss the solar rebates on offer in Australia.
There is one thing that seems to be a problem, or I need someone to explain the deal to me.
I had a flier in my mailbox from AGL. They offer something like a 1KW solar system, for $200 up front and then something like $3.45 a day over 2 years. Equaling about $2700 once paid up. People are then grid feeding and supposed to get some cash back for the electric generated.
The KW rate for electric feed in varies from company to company, paying about 15cents up to about 60cents.
O.k so this scenario now begins.......
Say you have 2 properties, one you live in and say second property has... say a shed with electricity already wired.
I am wondering if you plastered the second property with solar and never used the power, just having grid feed in basically, would there be enough generated to pay itself off (on average) at the highest rate they seem to pay you (about 60cents per KW) ?
Lets also say we only have a 1kw system fitted by the solar company of choice.
I am thinking this would not cover itself alone, correct?
I think the system would be lucky to generate 60 cents of power on a sunny day? Unsure, so..... someone clear my head a bit on this as I have no real idea how it works? I have only looked over the basics in general briefly. I know nothing of the specs, just going off the idea in general. I have also not accounted for connection fees e.c.t.
It sounds a bit too good to be true this offer, by that I mean it won't get you ahead massivly really will it? Or even pay itself off in 2 years, just on stand alone feed in?
Whats the go here.....?
I should have maybe just typed -
Can a 1kw solar system generate $2700 cashback, in 2 years, based on GRID FEED IN ONLY (no personal electricity usage at all), using ANY of the cashback tarrif rates, falling between 15cents up to 60cents per Kw?
Thanks....Edited by Lapsy 2012-11-03This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548
Posted: 11:11am 03 Nov 2012
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I've a 1050 watt solar system , returns around $20 per quarter (50 cents per Kw from the power Co.)
Having said that ,, thats brobably the excess from my solar that I don't use --you know--no frig working ,nobody home,etc.(If I was home running my washing machine ,3 friges, welding , etc all daylight hours , then my return would be 0 .I'd be using all my 1050 watts around the house.
so, even though I still pay a couple hundred dollars per quarter, I'd possibly pay a lot more if I did not have that 1050 watts on my roof .
I'm happy with what I got , the neighbours with 3-5 Kw are very happy with what they get .
on a more sinister note ,,wonder how many diy solar systems will be added or installed in the future--as long as they are certified grid tied inverters added to existing "approved" systems , how would the electric Co. know??
Bruce.Bushboy
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 03:02pm 03 Nov 2012
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O.k....
Your now touching on the other side of my argument.
I was wondering what happens if you just DIY yourself over time up to 1 KW and then attempt to get the system grid feeding?
Has anyone done this and how much did it cost you?
Wondering if going the rebate way would save you in the long run in respect to the grid tie in cost, with your own self funded panels? Surely someone has done this?
Not all panels have to be on your roof, I like the idea of a field of panels too.
Which also brings me to the point of people who are renting their houses.
How and what the hell can they do to take up the solar scheme?
If I was renting I would not want to leave my panels on the roof when I move!
Unwiring the inverter from house to house when you move........ ?
It seems people who are renting are treated as cogs in the machine holding others up in respect to the solar scheme. How are they supposed to take advantage of the governments offers for renewable energy?
Anyone seen a portable solar system that the government rebate covers?
Maybe there is one but I have not noticed it....?
Cheers for input so far!This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548
Posted: 11:16am 04 Nov 2012
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Hi Lapsy,, Yes, I'm sure there are handy people in our crowd that have done their own solar systems .. If they are connected to the grid ,,I bet you won't get them to admit .
Make your own solar system "bit by bit" --sure , why not . I see brand new panels are less than $1 per watt now on e-bay . I got 4X 220 watters for $770.
The grid-tied inverter, look on e-bay , saw them around $200 for 1Kw last week,( people are up-grading ), so the smaller units are out there cheap.
Renters---- thats a sorry note for you guys. you see, you only rent the space in that unit or house, you really can't attach or drill holes ,Etc ,unless the landlord approves. And I think the landlord is the one who has to do the paperwork to the electric company .
Portable ,, I see lots of those folding small panels on e-bay ,,just for camping ,Etc.
Switches, I use those "key" type switches from supercheap motor stores for around $
20
bruceEdited by brucedownunder2 2012-11-05Bushboy
M Del Senior Member Joined: 09/04/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 155
Posted: 05:29pm 04 Nov 2012
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Hi guys, long time lurker, first post.
I also have a 1050 watt system, and have a bill similar to Bruces.
I am looking at fitting extra panels (currently have a 2kw inverter) but there seems to be a catch.
From what I can find out, most electricity supply companies seem to have satelite/google earth pics of systems in their areas.
The pictures match up with your approved system and if you add to it they will use that as a way to cut your solar feed tarrif (you breached your contract?). They can also compare your previous readings etc.
So in order to increase the size of the system how hard would it be to fit a stand alone system with batteries etc? Would that be seen as breaching your contract?
No-one i talk to at my suplier can give me an answer, they say fit it and we will look at it when complete. A couple of KW of panels is a bit hard to hide.
Any ideas?
Mark Mark
brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548
Posted: 11:02am 05 Nov 2012
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Hi Mark,,
I'd first of all find an electrician that is willing to connect the extra panels legally..( bet there are thousands of sparkies doing this )
I have my doubts if an energy company is so overstaffed that all they want to do is sit around watching Google earth pictures.. remember ,most of the fairy tale stories you hear are pure fantasy- geeks sitting around inventing far fetched ideas.
They can't put you in jail !!!!(if it's connected electrically safe by a qualified electrician.) but they might cut your feed in tarrif if they actually find the system has been changed.
Think of this --- there are hundreds of thousands of solar installations--lots will upgrade -- do you really think they can police this (imagine the paperwork).
Go for it
BruceBushboy
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 05:33pm 05 Nov 2012
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If your original install was with a 2kw inverter than you are already approved to go up to 2kw, the inverter that is recorded on install sets your limit not the panels installed.
Now as for the google police, it do happen a lot, what the utility do is map the solar hours over a time period Ie: 3 months, from this they can plot a base return per Kw, now if you have approval for 1kw and your feed in shows more like 3-5kw across the time period for the solar hours then it draws a red flag to your account.
From there they look at your location via the spy in the sky (satalite images) and see if you have increased your solar capacity, if so then your FIT may be cut to about $0.09/Kw.
Remember its the power that flows to the grid that is recorded and attracts attention to you not the amount of panels you have.
If the total recorded power exceeds what is practially possible for the system you have approved, then they will take a look.
Its a bit hard to hide extra panels and as the spy images are taken on regular time periods they can pin point when you added extra panels.
Sure many people do it and a lot get caught, and for your FIT it be dropped to 9c/kw, thats almost free power to the utility and worth doing to their advantage.Sometimes it just works
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 04:49pm 09 Nov 2012
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Hi Lapsy,
I could probably answer a few of your questions.
What AGL is quoting you is a package deal, almost like phone companies do. I know there are a couple of Govt websites that will tell you what the actual installation subsidies are, what the going rebate is, How many renewable energy certificates (REC's) your system is allocated and what to do with them. I don't remember the websites at the moment, bit of brain fade happening. But if you are considering it, it is worth doing a bit of homework and compare what it would cost for an independently installed system.
The panels on a shed idea is going to depend on which state you are in and who you sign up with.
Here in South Australia the policy is that panels that are hooked through a meter that is not the primary residence will need to use a certain amount of power from the grid to keep the rebate. I have rigged a number of sheds so that things switch on at night and use a bit of power from the grid to keep them over the limit. Certainly well worth doing if they went in early and got the full 54 cent/Kw rebate for 15+ years.
I spoke with someone last week who is putting up 5Kw of panels on his house now and he is signing up at 18 cents, I didn't ask how many years it was for, but given that we are paying 24+ cents for residential power he will be running his pumps and stuff during the day to use the solar instead of the grid at night.
How much power will you generate? If you are not living somewhere where the clouds build up after lunch every day then a nice sunny day will give you about 4 to 7 Kw per day for every Kw your system is rated at. Get's a bit sad in winter for a few months if you are in the south.
I looked at a 5Kw system in Port Lincoln last week. it had averaged 32Kw per day for the last week and had pumped 10,000 Kw into the grid since it was installed 18 months ago. By the time it gets through its second summer, I think it will probably be averaging about 22 Kw per day over the whole year. I reckon that the break even point for that system with what it cost, interest, rebate, REC's is about 6 years.
cheers Yahoo I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 11:06pm 13 Nov 2012
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Yep,
I noticed in the fine print if you wish to remove your panels, E.G you move house, you can void the rebate and they can make you pay it back.
Seems to me its not about saving us money or cutting a good deal. It's more about planting a power station on your house for tem to sell off power generated at a highr price. Most probably it will go to other states or overseas.
By permanently bolting the panels to the roof they can then rely on the income. They don't seem to want you modifying/adjusting/expanding at all. If you do so, they penalise you for it as it must be a more valuable loss for them across the board.
Which leads me to the other side of the argument.....
What if I fund the stuff myself? Can I arrange my own grid feed legally without rebates (How much they slug for this I would like to know), and then barter and sell energy to the highest bidder?This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
M Del Senior Member Joined: 09/04/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 155
Posted: 01:21am 14 Nov 2012
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Hi Lapsy
You can fund your own system. It still needs to be aproved by your supplier before conection.
The problem now is getting your supplier to actually pay you for the excess you feed in. Also you will end up with a TOU meter.
In my area that means, peak time 52 cents, shoulder 21 cents, off peak 13 cents.
You may get 6-13 cents for electricity exported if lucky for a new conection.
That is for grid connected.
You can also go offgrid completly. I am looking at a secondary system to run most of my house, (panels, inverter, batteries and charger) while still conected to the grid for my gid feed system. Sort of the best of both worlds, blackout protection and a main feed for real heavy loads. For what I paid in 2008 for the panels and grid feed inverter ($12000 1kw) I can now get nearly 2.5kw of panels, batteries, inverter and a charger. Add in some extra for wiring, accessories and approval/certification for a total near $14k.
Problem is my supplier and another that I asked will not tell me if that breaches my original system approval until it is fitted and they inspect it. They will then decide/inform me if it cancells out my current tarif(60cents) or is accepted as a stand alone system. I might have to try the ombudsman for a proper response, or completely go off grid and go with a slightly larger system.
Does anyone have any thoughts on mounting a system on a trailer, parking it in your back yard and feeding via a properly fitted set of power points (sort of like an Army field power distribution network they use in tents etc)?
Just a thought.
Mark Mark
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 05:43pm 14 Nov 2012
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That bottom paragraph is my thoughts exactly, but imagine if wherever you go, you got a chance to get paid to feed. That would be cool but it's a dream.
Someone needs to put together the rental rebate kit!
I saw a funny car sticker giving our Prime minister a bit of stick. It just simply said - Ju-liar Gillard. Our Old gov is a bit crap for not looking after the millions of renters around Australia in regards to the solar and water rebates don't you think? Landlords could be kicking back laughing while a morgage and a solar system gets paid of by their poor arse tennant, who works his arse to the bone just to stay afloat! Edited by Lapsy 2012-11-16This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
I have a 1.6kW inverter that I have upped the panels to the max of 2000w a year latter.
I can't add anymore to the string without exceeding the max voltage for the inverter and can not upgrade the inverter as here in WA that is what my FIT is locked too.
1 PC, 2x 1m cube freezer, 1 fridge. Also a 120w fish system in the back shed that is solar assist during the day but grid fed at night.
With a 47c FIT my house is currently cost neutral over the year. Credit in summer, small debit in winter.
Last 58 day period I exported 440 units, imported 469 and received a $72 credit after supply charges etc.
Using some very rough calcs based on power usage before the solar was installed I believe the original cost will be paid off in about 7 years.
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 02:20pm 22 Dec 2012
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I have done a bit of research in the last few weeks and found that a few of the things I have been told by punters getting grid feed solar installed is complete drivel.
I have had a good look around the govt websites and got the correct figures and done a few dozen gross margins ( it's a farmer thing, )
Things have changed a lot since the price of equipment has dropped.
Households that are small power users have the best deal, a 2 Kw system will get allocated 101 STC's or REC's or whatever they are called now, in Zone 3. At today's prices that will pay for a really big slice of the equipment and installation, provided your in before JULY 2013.
The feed in tariff plus the retailer payment will be around the 25 to 28 cents for the next 4 years or so.
Depending in what sort of $ are spent on the system the return is pretty good, a cheaper 2Kw install will be well in the black inside two years.
That is a far better proposition than even a couple of years ago, with the higher FIT where the return on investment break even point was more like 4-7 years.
If I was a self funded retiree with a sunny north facing aspect on my house, I would have to give it some serious thought over the summer holidays. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670
Posted: 09:37pm 22 Dec 2012
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Just got my STC`s credit, the broker I used paid $32/ unit. Mine were for a solar hot water system (self installed commercial system). The unit price has dropped since I`d fitted the solar panels, they were called REC`s than and were worth around the $50/unit back 6 years ago.
If I were on the grid I`d have the max sized system allowed, the return is very good. However there are pitfalls. Probably the biggest in NQ is lightning damage.You do not need a direct hit.
Had a few of my panels replaced for this reason. The damage did not extend to the surge diverters ,regulator or inverter, but was only found on a visual inspection of panels. Although subsequent testing of the bank (array) they were in showed their performance down but not substantially.We come from the land downunder.
Vic
tomqu7 Senior Member Joined: 09/11/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 168
Posted: 12:25am 28 Dec 2012
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The tarif has been cut to 08 cents in victoria
same in qld I think
is subject to reviews upto 2016
??????
on the electricity market page should be a column for home solar to sell their electicity into market
horror trying to get meter in from agl
submitted 5 work orders maps titles
on the national electricity page whole sale rates of electricity prices are listed
and it only about $50 a megawatt
Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103
Posted: 09:26pm 20 Jan 2013
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Interesting!
Cheers for the tip off about July 2013. I thought it was done and dusted already.
Still can't believe they don't throw in a battery type setup.
I would not say this is a good setup from the Gov, as it is not self sustaining you really, it is more about them. They pay you for the power, but when things really hit the fan, where is your surplus of energy for things like E.G. Power cuts in the night?
Running solar and still having power cuts?
WTF!?
Tell me you can survive a power cut?
Oh yeah, what happens to the grid feed in if you decide you dont pay your bill and (Somehow) they disconnect you? (Would they)?
Edited by Lapsy 2013-01-22This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy.
shoebuckle Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 189
Posted: 03:42pm 25 Jan 2013
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For those interested in estimating the generating capacity of a system in Sydney, here are the monthly average kWh generated per nominal 1kW system installed (6 panels per kW) over the last 5 years. My panels face NW (actually 50 deg W of N) and are partly obstructed by a tree until about 10am.
Jan 139.13
Feb 143.4
Mar 96.53
Apr 108.47
May 75.73
Jun 80.8
Jul 68.67
Aug 77.93
Sep 94.87
Oct 125.33
Nov 136.67
Dec 144.47
These are the figures reported by my inverter which are about 9% greater than the supplier's FIT meter. Looks like my inverter has around 9% conversion efficiency.
Hope this helps,
Hugh
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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