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Forum Index : Solar : Reason for Failure of these panels
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Dinosaur Guru  Joined: 12/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 311 |
Hi All After a recent trip in the van discovered a loss of solar charging (about 1/2). Finally got to pivot the panels up and open the connection boxes underneath. Photo's show burned out (or corroded) fuse links. There didn't appear to be any water marks in the lid and the lid has a very good seal. The panels are SPM-ST-200W, VOC = 45.63V Max Power current 5.27A. I have 4 of these with 2 each in series. The two panels that failed are in series with each other. The tops of the panels look in good condition, no cracks or signs of corrosion on the cell tracks. On one of the units that failed, the white plastic sheet under the panels showed bubbles. Perhaps that means water got in from the top ?? These are 72 cell panels and not that popular these days, so will probably replace them with 250 Watt panels. Anyone have any ideas on the reason of the failure.? Haven't had a chance to check the diodes yet. Regards   Regards Hervey Bay Qld. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Could be a lot of things but with the lookup I just did on the manufacturer, the likelihood seems they were just crap panels to begin with. Couldn't find those ones specifically but seems the same brand was brought in by an ebay seller as well as a now defunct solar company way back in 2012. Unless the things were standing in water and for a considerable time. They should never get water bubbles. My guess is the next thing would be scorch marks where the tracks in the panels burnt though. Seen that a few times. There is some green in the junction boxes which to me says Moisture but I doubt that's the whole story. How were they wired? Were they 2x2 to different controllers or series/ Parallel all together? Looks like they have had a lot of current going through them. Personally, wouldn't worry about them too much. Replace them all with 250W panels you should be able to pick up for $50 ea or maybe less and be done with it. If you have the room or way to put them under the van, Pick up a couple more and hinge them together so you can have a ground mount set you can place in the best sun and get some more juice when you need it. I never cease to be amazed at the prices people pay for these Camping panels which are low (12) voltage, low amperage and very low quality instead of just using house panels. Yes, house panels are heavier but that's because they ( generally) are built to last and be Robust. These have had a decent life so just pick up some 250 or 270 which are the same physical size and go again. I wouldn't be too worried about brand these days, there are all decent and if they have been installed on a house before they are decent enough. I wheel and deal used panels and I haven't seen a lot of failed ones. The ones I have seen have been moreso the known brands even though I get a lot I have never heard of before. They aren't exy now, get the best deal you can one some used ones and you should be fine. |
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| Dinosaur Guru Joined: 12/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 311 |
Hi All Thanks for the reply Davo99. The panels are in 2x2 configuration. I am thinking that perhaps now is the time to change all the panels. Awaiting the delivery of a Electrodacus BMS, which is not suitable for my high VOC panels unless I have a Charge controller in between. The charge controller that I have is a EPSolar Tracer which doesn't allow for LiFePo4. If I buy new solar panels with a lower VOC, then I can do without a charge controller. It will also allow the charge to go to the LiFePo4 limits (and monitor/protect the cells), as the Tracer only goes to 13.8 V. BUT, that means more expensive solar panels and probably re-organizing my mounting rails on the roof of the Van. Saw some of my existing panels for $20 each in Brisbane on Gumtree, but with the lock down ??? EDIT: Anyone have any feedback on these kind of flexible solar panels? https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/334052898835?hash=item4dc71ab813%3Ag%3ApvQAAOSwQPtg1XJZ&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=705-53470-19255-0&campid=5337996411&customid=dea21ebe-41f9-4eb9-91ee-86833d766d45&toolid=10049 Thinking of just sticking them flat on the caravan roof. Edited 2021-07-03 11:07 by Dinosaur Regards Hervey Bay Qld. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Only read of them many times but from those that look to things as being quality beyond they work in giving some output and actually test them and know what they are looking for, they are pretty much considered to be crap. They are lightweight and flexible but almost always fall badly short on output power and are severely degraded in 2-3 years from UV exposure and cracking. The silicone wafers in cells are very thin and brittle. bending and flexing them is not a good idea for longevity. They put thick heavy, tempered glass on household panels for a reason! :0) They are also expensive for their output...especially their DELIVERED rather than rated output which is usually fictitious inflated Chyneese numbers. Most of the 250/270W house panels I have seen are 37 V OC and 30.? working so lower than what you have now. Which BMS did you get? The electro I just looked up said it's good for up to 51V? Some people have tapped across the diodes or taken back some of the plastic at the back expose the junction connections to divide the cell groups to get lower outputs. Never done it myself but it obviously works. You have a couple of perfect panels to play and practice with that. Personally, I'd be getting a charge controller if that's what you need and use house panels. The money you spend on that will probably be less than what you spend on those flexible things and you will have a far better, far more powerful, robust and reliable system for probably less money with the house panels. I just looked at your link for the flexible panels. They have sure come down in price but I'm not surprised. Looked at the seller and the name was one I have seen mentioned before... for all the wrong reasons. Quick look at their feedback confirms what I have read and said. Poor quality panels that are grossly over rated in output. Danger Will Robinson!! |
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| Dinosaur Guru Joined: 12/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 311 |
Hi All Because my existing panels have a VOC of 46 v and a Max Power Voltage of 38 V , they are not suitable for switching directly to the LiFePo4 cells. (or so I am told by ElectroDacus) So I was going to use their outputs and use my own SSR's to switch the regulated voltage AFTER the MPPT controller. Because I may want to sell the van in the longer term, the aim is to have an "off the shelf" system. My current system would require 3 pages of instructions and Do/Dont's So in the last day or so, I have ordered the additional bits from ElectroDacus to suit the lower VOC panels. But the 4 solar panels are the bug bear. Done a lot of reading and watching videos on the installation of the flex panels. Apparently two things kill them, flexing and over heating. The ElectroDacus system has a bypass option that allows the solar to be diverted to a hot water heater when the battery is fully charged.This will prevent the panels from over heating. Just have to change my element. Then the method of securing the panels. Some recommended using Bunnings Tunnelcore sheets under the panels as insulation and taping them down with Eternabond white tape. This prevents the air from getting under them and flexing the panel. Although these points may solve some objections, the fact that there is no glass protection is a major. Will keep looking for solar cells locally (ie:Eastern Australia) Regards Hervey Bay Qld. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Pfft! Sorry, NO it won't!! You are being severely mislead with that crock. I don't know where you read that from but wherever it was, I would not be putting an ounce of faith in anything else they said that's for sure, I'd suggest you be careful whatever else advise you read there and be verifying it elsewhere. One of the Biggest loads of Hooey I have ever heard. Yes, Cells will run cooler under load but it's not by 10s of degrees or that having a load on them will prevent them overheating, that is just garbage I'm afraid. In any case, what happens when the batteries are charged and the hot water is up to temp? If over heating is a concern with these panels, then I wouldn't touch the things with a barge pole. Never heard of a House panel over heating. Half of mine sit on the roof all summer with no load because I switch the inverters off. I guarantee if you took the temps of the ones that are connected and the ones that are sitting there baking, the temp difference would be 2/10ths of diddly squat. I have been experimenting with using panels as solar air heating collectors. Even with a backing on the panel and blowing air under them, there is best as I can measure, a degree difference between the ones that are under load free standing and the air cooled ones. A significant amount of heat rejection is out the FRONT of the panels not the back. They will operate so far above their ideal output temp in ANY direct sunlight summer or winter that the only way to keep them down to rated temp would be in a snow covered environment. In any case, what is the acceptable temp and what is overheating? Is there a specification for that? If not, it's a load of crap. Sounds like more complete and utter garbage to me. Some people clearly don't have the first clue about thermo Dynamics that's for sure! Please don't misunderstand my chagrin at these Ideas, I am not having a go at you, but the misinformation you have been told. Unless there is airflow through the coreflute there is going to be no cooling whatso ever. I would tend to think in case of a van with typically a white aluminium roof, having the corflute may be more insulative and make the panels Hotter by trapping the air and preventing any heat dissipation. Trapped air is exactly how a Lot of insulation works and the small passages in the coreflute could do this pretty well in still air and even a decent breeze unless the passages were orientated the right way. Hot days tend to be that way because they are very still and there is no air movement to cool anything. That's why a fan makes things more comfortable. Even if you put a fan blowing through the corflute, the plastic backing of the panel and the plastic corflute is going to be a VERY poor conductor of heat into the air passages and again, my gut feeling is would insulate better than cool. If you did want to cool these panels, Only way I could see to do it would be with a decent thickness sheet of aluminium under them, 5mm or so suspended on 4 Rails along the length to prevent large flexing and raised an inch or 2 off the van roof. You would also want a load of conductive heat paste under the panel to ensure decent heat transfer. Not in any way practical. These cells may well dissipate the heat better though the aluminium sheeting of the van roof that would at least be a large heat sink to any breeze from any direction than corflute. And it is the lack of any decent UV absorbent/ Filtering medium that causes these panels to break down so quickly. That and the fact there is no way to prevent a lot of vibration and flexing. House type cells are Bonded to the glass, it does not just sit over the top and whle glass will certainly flex, it will do so a lot less than metal or most other materials in practical Thickness and weight. I think you would be infinitely wiser to do that and use regular panels.... And disregard a Lot of what you are reading from where ever the advise is to mount these other things on coreflute and that a load will stop them overheating. Sounds like something the clueless on the DIY solar power forum would say whom just follow whatever parroted advise they read without thinking it through or looking at the big picture. They are obsessed with the electrodatus products as well. I have no knowledge of them good or bad but certain forums seem to get a particular mind set and anyone that does not follow the parroted mantra and dares to think outside the box is admonished. As such many go with the flow and a lot more never really think through the information nor how it applies to their particular situation. Seen this Blind leading the blind scenario so many times before on a range of forums where people just do what the guy before them did who did what the previous guy did who.... and no one ever stops to think why they are doing something, the real goal of the exercise or what their own conditions and situation is and how what they are doing applies. I can't think of any panels in the 250W range that are lower voltage than 30 VMP. The larger output panels have gone up even higher to 45-50 odd V now in order to keep the Current down at their increasing outputs especially when in paralleled strings. |
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| Dinosaur Guru Joined: 12/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 311 |
Hi Davo99 Thanks for your detailed response. The corflute or Tunnelcore was suggested by a YouTube video with someone mounting the flex panels. Your comment on orienting it the right way to allow air through whilst traveling was negated by the person using Eternabond Tape over all sides. One other point that caused me to change direction is that the flex panels must expand with the heat and if it is secure at the edges, then the middle will bulb up, then down again with contraction. So in other words built in flexing. One thing I did see on the ElectroDacus site was an experiment by using a solar panel to feed excess current to and thus act as a heater. An Infrared photo showed the heat concentration. He had the panel hanging on the wall like a piece of art. I don't think it would replace a roaring fire.  EDIT: I am seeing a lot of panels that dont specify a fixed Wattage: ie:210-300 W and they nominate Is that another marketing trick to sell 200 Watt panels as 300 W. In other words you can only draw 300 W at the right pwm frequency ??? https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/272827722742?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item3f85ccabf6:g:4b8AAOSwwfhgG03C&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACkPYe5NmHp%252B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsSlHY%252FYTip4QFVjNQrCEJt6u51gF5944j7dWxw8xCfmqxb6tmhISSLXwd4jyOm%252FWXkJtJI4QXr6u2pvF9DUPRrT2OM%252B1bGKIm5hIScq6gl5nEk6Ylxjl%252FXjH7w%252F5DVwM9KmW5bTqFwEZK9i%252Bj98sRL%252Bp9LdpXsK%252FDhczXG%252FaB0Fz%252BVS1zh%252BSUy1ZwYCrSGCPaLFPpVe%252B6FgFXnssA8QCvQTx21CpdzC7HonWvt4gKTaGocoY4b3kyB8sNtQigHIWjunegz6Ti6SPyoJW1jh5cQA610C5plHat%252F8TEqJczc4CMyMZFzKWaQrktZHeg3QaG0uqO1tCCvkpy5eUbNPEFhBKWJnUIt8D36yL%252FM2BAjjBx9OhGeXFnXteWAW9qbD80Vlr9qhlVfDADgIYoj4lSItExE67w6M%252FgGWdjZzqGosB%252BkXeZxhLEmtrNnx5LFcgQGLIgJGcsZMBLpISEOvPyM%252Fo9SfWqiS80B1s%252BG9LM%252FHcoX%252BLhhtFI%252FAc9N9JUIcHTdtwAuoa%252BkYsU7kJnlQ4D5bnbbsYhWTQG1EiaxQ3HTnmzBGBROMOMpB5KSXgSDUEskRVSyiuWAazcPnoBGCW4CLiDd%252FH3l%252FY59z%252BrF89M50ydjGGhwZXtx3p57KJlMyZm470DFWILlKRe040oiWIv7DwqUSAT0snnWFZ97ai%252Bzrtl%252F9E%252FKimXNn6rGVL68evW3AtbCW05HtoGZ2vEwNZDa3lkZS9jM%252FxDwxRG0rATE%252FnVGppkynpe%252BqedTqLjGz3EYhyafbUME%252FHvHq41WC6lyk5rWiCvwtwPvoPEOi3n8zsjD8B2wCOgZbWwQqvNOUs1f%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524 Edited 2021-07-04 07:47 by Dinosaur Regards Hervey Bay Qld. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
First up you might want to edit that link that is about 4 pages wide. Use the link ^ Key right above the arrow. Put the title of the link " Panel" in this case then the URL so it looks like this Panel Never seen a link like it! Back to the subject... Yes, I was wondering how one would tape them and allow airflow through the coreflute but the idea was so flawed there were bigger issues anyway. I have always said the Net is a fantastic learning resource but you have to be able to sort the good info from the absolute crap and work out whom knows what they are talking about and whom is clueless and just decided to make a Video. There are some VERY prominent you tubers doing that and despite getting called out on it repeatedly, they still have huge followings of people whom don't know any better believing every word. That panel is an absolute joke!! Typical of the cesspit fleabay has become full of deceitful crooks selling absolute crap and passing things off with ridiculous claims and descriptions. Looking at the blurb... well maybe don't bother. There is SO much crap in that I don't even know where to begin. The "power range" I can only assume as you say it's a marketing con for deniability to do the old ebay thing of or akin to add a zero to the end to make the number bigger than the other guys regardless of how ridiculous that is and then claim a typing error if you get called out on it. But yes, in this case I believe it's a way to pass off a -maybe- 200W panel as a 300W. Same as with inverters they will claim 6000W "Peak" Power and 300 or 600 continuous. More utter garbage. I notice they claim 24% efficiency. What, were these things from a spase craft or something? Only thing I know of as a production panel that does that. House panels are lucky to get over 20% at all and if they did 24, the sure as well wouldn't be peddling them as camping panels on fleabay. Other thing I see is no Degradation of output after 10 years. They are selling panels that defeat current science once again.... Unless you put dodgy ratings on the things so you can claim they are a 250W panel that does from 200W to 300. Most people are only going to look at the big number when they buy them and when they hit the little Number the seller already has his arse covered. And if that seller is around 2 years or you can get a claim in even 6 Months, that will be another miracle. May as well offer a 100 yr guarantee. Worth just as little. And what the HELL is 200% light sensitivity? The things operate at Night??? They are a monocrystalline cell, what's so special about them they have 200% Light sensitivity? OH, Should have known, Outbax Conning... err, I mean camping. Again, look at the feedback. Multiple people all saying the panels are unmarked and don't put out near what the claims are. How typical. I would STRONGLY advise you just forget about ANY of these fleabay panels. Unless they are a household panel of a known brand, the likelihood is about 90% they will be crap and if you are looking at the cheaper ones it's about a 107% chance. If you don't care and just want to put something up there to sell the van, not a problem. If you want something that is going to work reliably for years not months, You will have to spend BIG $$ on name brand small panels from a REPUTABLE seller ( and don't ask me whom that is because I have no experience or knowledge on these panels even though I have read many times of the dodgys) Or just go to house panels. It can't be that hard to set up a system with the higher voltages with all the gear around today. I think you are just wasting your time and WILL waste your money looking at these camping / Fleabay type panels. One other tip, Regents park and often listed as surrounding Suburbs ( look them up on google maps) is where a central Drop ship hub is with hundreds of Fleabay scammers. It's Chyneese run predominantly only open to Chyneese sellers from Chynaah. They sell Packaged stores with all the promo material and sellers just Buy an online presences and do the listings and anything sold comes direct from the parent company and is drop shipped. The seller never sees the product or has a clue what is going out.... which is 95% complete and utter crap that is over rated/ stated. I try to NOT buy anything that has regents park as the item location but they will go to great lengths now more people are waking up to it to hid the location and simply say Sydney Or Chullora is another popular one which is an adjacent suburb. I have been to this place and it's Massive but there is a real " Us and them " attitude that is for sure. All returns are looked after by the parent company whom are experts in Fking people around and Offering a $10 Refund on a 100 product that is completely useless and now they will start playing on the heart stings with crap like " If I give any more refund my boss will punish or sack me and I have a family to feed" and other insulting crap designed to play on the conscious of honest people which they are not. The Culture of these sellers and where they come from is not as our, honesty and integrity, it's basically the buyer has to be aware and if they get suckered it's their fault not the sellers for being Dishonest. I have a Couple of good Chyneese friends whom are Business people ( not in that racket) that know their culture and ours and discussions with them are always very enlightening. Ebay only cares about it's sellers despite the BS about Buyer protection and other rubbish because simply the SELLERS are the ones that pay them their fees, not the Buyers which they wash their hands of as soon as anything goes wrong. They will do the bare minimum they can't get out of but other than that, the only think they are interested in is getting their fees and looking after the BIG fish. Little sellers are of no consequence. The old adage, 80% of your profits come from 20% of your customers. This mob at regents park probably pays them millions, maybe 10's of Millions a year so obviously that are going to turn a very blind eye whenever they possibly can and when it comes to this Mob, fleabays eyes are blind, Removed and have have 3 pair of darkest tint welding goggles over the top for good measure. Here is a Link to some of these Companies on ebay. Like I said, If you want some ornaments to put up to sell the van, no worries, go with these Flebag camping type panels. If you want something that actually works more than a month at rated output, go with house panels and save yourself the aggro of getting ripped off. :0) |
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| bob.steel Senior Member  Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188 |
The green is "verdigris" Look to that point for the failure reason and obviously its water ingress . Clean that up and continue . Everything else will be fine. |
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| Xander Newbie  Joined: 17/02/2020 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4 |
I also get technical stuff and equipment via famaga.co.uk when I need quick delivery. They offer a wide range of those as well. |
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| Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 458 |
Hi Dinosaur, if they were mine I would clean up the connections and repair them. Seems that water got in and corroded the copper straps. I may be a cheapskate but I would just repair them and see how long they last. I would suggest also covering the connecting straps in a waterproofing agent such as battery terminal corrosion inhibitor. Pete |
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| Dinosaur Guru Joined: 12/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 311 |
Hi All Many thanks for the suggestions. As the solar cells appear perfect, I may just do as suggested. I have ordered 4 x 200 watt 12 v solar panels to use with the Electrodacus system as the existing panels are to high a voltage. However I have removed a perfectly good Tracer 4210RN (40 Amp) complete with Remote meter, so I can sell that as a complete 800 watt system. All I need is Time. Once again, many thanks for the suggestions. Regards Hervey Bay Qld. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
What panels did you order? |
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| Dinosaur Guru Joined: 12/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 311 |
Hi All 4 x Renogy 200 Watt and they arrived today 1 week after ordering. https://au.renogy.com/renogy-200-watt-12-volt-monocrystalline-solar-panel/ Edited 2021-07-09 16:46 by Dinosaur Regards Hervey Bay Qld. |
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